Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#5755 of 24726 Lexusguy
Jul 11, 2004 (9:48 pm)
"The RX330 also had adaptive headlights first, and BMW and Audi copied that. Does M-B even offer that feature yet? I dont think that they do."
This is incorrect my friend. For MY 2004 both Lexus (RX330) and BMW (3 and 5-Series) both offer/ed these lights. Mercedes offers them also for the 2004 MY on the E-Class.
Now if you mean that Lexus was actually the first one to have this feature to go on sale (last summer) then you'd be right because the 2004 3, 5 and E didn't go on sale until a few months later.
In either case BMW had the feature on sale in Europe either before or at the same time Lexus did over here.
Jul 11, 2004 (10:24 pm)
The Japanese probably get all the cool stuff before we get them here in the states. I bet the Celsiors in Japan get the gizmos before we get them here in the LS. Happens with all the electronics... the latest plasmas, fanciest DVD players, etc.
They don't need to build a 500hp/50mpg car. I don't think they've even said that's possible. If they can build a 400hp/30mpg car, they'll be on to something. That's still twice the gas mileage of any other 300-400 hp car out there.
Makes sense in Asia/Europe, where gas is $6 to $8 per gallon.
Jul 11, 2004 (10:33 pm)
My point about a 400hp Lexus is that here whenever high-performance is mentinoned in the same breath with BMW or Mercedes it is seen as a meaningless waste and on this board it has even been called "dangerous" because of the performance attainable, yet if Lexus does it it will be seen as the second coming of the automobile and because of the MPG gains more useful. This new found fuel economy doesn't negate the first criticism. Four-hundred hp is still four-hundred hp and if it a BMW M5 is pointless then a 400hp Lexus is too, because the Lexi-based theory teaches that neither would be usable in the real world of driving on real roads. Far too much power than anyone needs and is far to dangerous.
#5758 of 24726 Re: sv7887 [ljflx]
Jul 11, 2004 (10:41 pm)
The real innovators are actually the parts/sub-system guys. I doubt there's any paid engineer at MB or Lexus that worked on inventing either keyless entry or laser/radar cruise. It's the sub-system/auto-parts companies that come up with new ideas and new products and try to convince carmakers to integrate them. Even system as major as Vehicle Dynamic Control was invented/refined by Continental-Teves, Delphi and etc.; BMW happened to be the first one to integrate it into their cars.
It should therefore not be surprising that MB may proceed Lexus in integrating certain new systems both because they are more willing to pay the price-premium to be the early adopter (there could be an exclusive deal for 12 months, for example), and because Lexus is more likely to wait and make sure the system works before adopting it (e.g. BMW's adoption of i-Drive, which is a Microsoft "innovation"). MB fans used to proudly proclaim that Germans were reluctant to integrate new gagetry because they wanted to wait till it can be sure that the gadgets work; those were the days when MB was known for quality automobiles. Somehow nowadays in the eyes of the MB fans, Lexus's use of proven electronics are called gadgetry-happy, while MB and BMW's adoption of non-performing or subpar new technology are called innovative. Go figure.
#5759 of 24726 Re: Lexusguy [merc1]
Jul 11, 2004 (10:49 pm)
MB may actually have been the first one to announce the turning head lights; however, it was the last to bring actual car to the market. All three of them just integrate some third party turning headlights. MB's long delay between announcement to actual car on the lot is indicative its problems. In most industries, the nonperformers are most likely to show off vaporwares for months ahead of actual product launch, simply as a stop-gap measure to slow down customers going to rivals in droves.
#5760 of 24726 Re: [lexusguy] & sv7887 [merc1]
Jul 11, 2004 (10:58 pm)
When people buy a Mercedes-Benz they expect perfection and only that, thus when a Benz has a problem (however minor or slight) it gets dinged on these surveys.
That is not the reason why they get bad results in those surveys. The JDP survey is based on the count of number of problems per thousand vehicles, not silly questions like "are you happy with your new car?" both JDP and CR give out detailed questionaires in categories as to where the problems are. It's not about whether their leather has a blotch or panel gap size or any such subjective measures; a transmission/engine/electronics problem is a problem regardless what car they are dealing with, unless of course if you think a new MB is for looking pretty sitting in front of the house or the dealer's mechanical shop.
#5762 of 24726 adaptive headlights
Jul 11, 2004 (11:06 pm)
Neither BMW, Lexus nor MB invented the idea. The idea was invented by Tucker, an American decades ago.
MB has always been the leader in safety technology.
Lexus is the leader in ergonomics.
The Germans was content with high prices and austere interior with stiff leather seats until Lexus came around.
Jul 11, 2004 (11:06 pm)
". All three of them just integrate some third party turning headlights. MB's long delay between announcement to actual car on the lot is indicative its problems."
What delay are you talking about? All three companies brought this tech out for the 2004 MY.
"The JDP survey is based on the count of number of problems per thousand vehicles, not silly questions like "are you happy with your new car?" both JDP and CR give out detailed questionaires in categories as to where the problems are. It's not about whether their leather has a blotch or panel gap size or any such subjective measures; a transmission/engine/electronics problem is a problem regardless what car they are dealing with...."
I believe that is what I stated. I wasn't speaking about the Mini - cupholders and Hummer - gas mileage stuff. The dependability survey is where the real meat is.
It is true that nowadays most of the electrical innovation comes from suppliers, but when Mercedes did the really basic innovating they became famous for they did most of it them themselves, like in the area of safety. Mercedes and Bosch today usually work 50/50 on things, both sending some of their engineers to each other's companies to work on an idea so it isn't all supplier based in the least. Not sure what Toyota does.
Jul 11, 2004 (11:18 pm)
"When people buy a Mercedes-Benz they expect perfection and only that, thus when a Benz has a problem (however minor or slight) it gets dinged on these surveys."
I really don't agree with this either, that somehow MB owners are more sensitive to problems.
In fact, if there were a bias (which I really don't think there is), it would be AGAINST Lexus. Sure, MB is still king of the hill, but when it comes to reliability, Lexus is the generally known king. And it is becoming more generally known that MB's have reliability problems. Many people buy Lexus's because of their reputation as trouble-free cars. Hence, a Lexus owner may be even more prone to reporting something minor as a "problem". In any case, I don't think this bias is enough to make a statistical difference.
"Far too much power than anyone needs and is far to dangerous."
Well, I don't know about anyone else in this board, but nothing about luxury cars has anything to do with "need." Why draw the line at 400hp? Why not 250hp? Are our lives so much better because we can go 0 to 60 in 5.5 seconds, rather than 6.5 seconds? I have no problems with MB and BMW making 400hp cars, and I got no problems with Lexus making them either.
I remember the first LS400 had 250hp. Now, 250hp is what many midsize family sedans have. If 400hp is going to be the norm among ultra lux cars, then by all means...