Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#5751 of 24726 Re: sv7887 [ljflx #5746]
Jul 11, 2004 (8:46 pm)
"BMW follows MB in the same way with most of these things."
Really? I'm curious to know how so? Lexus is only one that follows, usually feature for feature with Mercedes. BTW, I don't call this copying or borrowing, just business, but to say BMW does it the same way Lexus does is a way off.
I'm also curious to know why you think the new GS is going to do anything more than the previous one did. One paper the new GS is hardly anything to write home about spec wise and looking at...well. The middle-weight class is going to be awfully crowded by next spring and the GS will sharing the spotlight with a new M35/45 from Infiniti (which is the car I see having the biggest market impact) and a new RL, STS, not to mention the two sales leaders the E and 5-Series. The 1998 GS made a splash too and wound up forgotten as the class moved on. Also, the E-Class and 5-Series aren't going to sit still either, they'll be respond to all the competition sometime next summer in the form of freshened 2006 models, especially the E-Class.
Jul 11, 2004 (8:50 pm)
Yep, I agree with lexusguy. Lexus really did create a new segment with its car-based SUV (RX300).
As far as electric and mechanical "gizmos" go, MB does seem to be a trend-setter.
Who came up with Navi systems? I'm not sure, but Japanese Navi systems are for the most part superior to Euro Navi systems.
Toyota/Lexus does seem to have a lot on their hybrid technology. It remains to be seen if they're all they're cracked up to be in mainstream cars.
#5753 of 24726 Re: [sv7887] [michael_mattox #5748]
Jul 11, 2004 (8:51 pm)
"The Japanese on the other hand are great at taking an innovation and working with it and making it better..Keyless entry, Radar cruise etc. all apeared in Mercedes years ago....BUT..When they do show up in a Lexus you know they will work almost without fail."
Really? If this was entirely true Lexus would be using a radar-based cruise control system like Mercedes, BMW and Jaguar. A laser based system has been proven not to be as accurate or effective. Please tell me how Lexus made keyless entry better than anyone else when their system works just all the others? Yes, Mercedes introduced Keyless Go in 2001 and it has a few problem at first, but it has long been since cleared up, that was three years ago, and Lexus adopted the feature for 2004. I'm really willing to listen as to how Lexus made this system better since Mercedes has long ago worked the bugs out of their system, like back in the beginning of 2002...so if there is something else Lexus has done beside improve on MB's initial introduction of the system (as far as reliability is concerned) I'd like to hear.
#5754 of 24726 jrock65
Jul 11, 2004 (8:56 pm)
The Japanese were the first to introduce a Nav system in a production car. They were clearly ahead of the Europeans in this area, as most of them were still experimenting with the concept and thus have had to come late to the Nav party with an inferior design.
Some of this has to do with the European dismissing them because they could just go to the same suppliers like Pioneer that Acura goes to and wala they'd have the same type of system.
As far as Hybrids go I'm really curious to see what happens with them. I personally don't see the point of a 400+ hp Lexus when this group detest the mere mention of a hi-po car as being something to aspire to. Secondly to worry about fuel economy with a 400-500hp car is just well to much to me. I'll be the first one to admit Lexus is worth something if the produce a 500hp car than can perform with the best and still get 50 MPG, I personally don't see it happening.
#5755 of 24726 Lexusguy
Jul 11, 2004 (9:48 pm)
"The RX330 also had adaptive headlights first, and BMW and Audi copied that. Does M-B even offer that feature yet? I dont think that they do."
This is incorrect my friend. For MY 2004 both Lexus (RX330) and BMW (3 and 5-Series) both offer/ed these lights. Mercedes offers them also for the 2004 MY on the E-Class.
Now if you mean that Lexus was actually the first one to have this feature to go on sale (last summer) then you'd be right because the 2004 3, 5 and E didn't go on sale until a few months later.
In either case BMW had the feature on sale in Europe either before or at the same time Lexus did over here.
Jul 11, 2004 (10:24 pm)
The Japanese probably get all the cool stuff before we get them here in the states. I bet the Celsiors in Japan get the gizmos before we get them here in the LS. Happens with all the electronics... the latest plasmas, fanciest DVD players, etc.
They don't need to build a 500hp/50mpg car. I don't think they've even said that's possible. If they can build a 400hp/30mpg car, they'll be on to something. That's still twice the gas mileage of any other 300-400 hp car out there.
Makes sense in Asia/Europe, where gas is $6 to $8 per gallon.
Jul 11, 2004 (10:33 pm)
My point about a 400hp Lexus is that here whenever high-performance is mentinoned in the same breath with BMW or Mercedes it is seen as a meaningless waste and on this board it has even been called "dangerous" because of the performance attainable, yet if Lexus does it it will be seen as the second coming of the automobile and because of the MPG gains more useful. This new found fuel economy doesn't negate the first criticism. Four-hundred hp is still four-hundred hp and if it a BMW M5 is pointless then a 400hp Lexus is too, because the Lexi-based theory teaches that neither would be usable in the real world of driving on real roads. Far too much power than anyone needs and is far to dangerous.
#5758 of 24726 Re: sv7887 [ljflx]
Jul 11, 2004 (10:41 pm)
The real innovators are actually the parts/sub-system guys. I doubt there's any paid engineer at MB or Lexus that worked on inventing either keyless entry or laser/radar cruise. It's the sub-system/auto-parts companies that come up with new ideas and new products and try to convince carmakers to integrate them. Even system as major as Vehicle Dynamic Control was invented/refined by Continental-Teves, Delphi and etc.; BMW happened to be the first one to integrate it into their cars.
It should therefore not be surprising that MB may proceed Lexus in integrating certain new systems both because they are more willing to pay the price-premium to be the early adopter (there could be an exclusive deal for 12 months, for example), and because Lexus is more likely to wait and make sure the system works before adopting it (e.g. BMW's adoption of i-Drive, which is a Microsoft "innovation"). MB fans used to proudly proclaim that Germans were reluctant to integrate new gagetry because they wanted to wait till it can be sure that the gadgets work; those were the days when MB was known for quality automobiles. Somehow nowadays in the eyes of the MB fans, Lexus's use of proven electronics are called gadgetry-happy, while MB and BMW's adoption of non-performing or subpar new technology are called innovative. Go figure.
#5759 of 24726 Re: Lexusguy [merc1]
Jul 11, 2004 (10:49 pm)
MB may actually have been the first one to announce the turning head lights; however, it was the last to bring actual car to the market. All three of them just integrate some third party turning headlights. MB's long delay between announcement to actual car on the lot is indicative its problems. In most industries, the nonperformers are most likely to show off vaporwares for months ahead of actual product launch, simply as a stop-gap measure to slow down customers going to rivals in droves.
#5760 of 24726 Re: [lexusguy] & sv7887 [merc1]
Jul 11, 2004 (10:58 pm)
When people buy a Mercedes-Benz they expect perfection and only that, thus when a Benz has a problem (however minor or slight) it gets dinged on these surveys.
That is not the reason why they get bad results in those surveys. The JDP survey is based on the count of number of problems per thousand vehicles, not silly questions like "are you happy with your new car?" both JDP and CR give out detailed questionaires in categories as to where the problems are. It's not about whether their leather has a blotch or panel gap size or any such subjective measures; a transmission/engine/electronics problem is a problem regardless what car they are dealing with, unless of course if you think a new MB is for looking pretty sitting in front of the house or the dealer's mechanical shop.