Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#5655 of 24726 Re: brightness04 [brightness04 #5640]
Jul 05, 2004 (8:34 pm)
All I can say is that you're lost when comparing the 48K+ E-Class to the 33K ES330 in any way, especially in sales because they're both mid-size cars. That is totally and utterly ridiculous and really says that you have no sense of the market. The RL is priced like the E-Class at 45K and this is at the very least more comparable in terms of sales.
"Do you need reviews to tell you how to open a box of cereal and how to pour milk? Go test drive one against its competitions yourself. Even if you are too lazy to do that, the numbers should tell you the difference:
You listing the stats for each car doesn't prove of say squat about how they drive, especially compared to a fwd tarted up Camry which you've foolishly tried to compare the E-Class with. You seem to be good at crunching numbers like other Lexi folk, but beyond that you seem lost. If don't care to understand the difference between fwd and rwd dynamics then that is your problem. Whats really amazing is that you'd give the hp/torque ratios for a car without a sporting weld in it's body, the ES330. The group that buys this car isn't concerned with even feeling the road much less actually drivin'.
BTW, I've driven every car you've list except the new 530i. Been there and done that.
If you think S-Classes are mainly chauffered then you're mistaken to say the least. The Maybach was just created and is meant for just that, and that has what to do with the 118 years beforehand when Mercedes was making their name? Mercedes are not about isolation now nor were they in the past. The S600 and Maybach are about the only Benz products you'll find Jeeves driving. The S55 AMG and regular S500/S430 surely aren't chaufrered.
"Do you need reviews to tell you how to open a box of cereal and how to pour milk?" (had to post this one twice)
Nope, but I need a credible review to back up your baseless theories about these cars. Even some within the Lexus camp don't buy this crap about the E320.
Also, I find your explanation about Lexus' GS to be the biggest, fattest, excuse made on this board in about a year. Low production, this and that, face it the car is old and tired and has never sold well past 1998. Excuses, excuses. You mean to tell me they're redesigning it for it sell at the same rate?!?!. Please.
Oh, and just because you think Mercedes' image was made by the S-Class doesn't make it so. Yes it is a very important car, their most important sedan as far as image/prestige/engineering goes, but the SL is also a Mercedes-Benz legend and a even bigger one than the S-Class. Poof there goes another one of your theories. Tell me the SL is about isolation. The E-Class dates back for a similar amount of time and has never been about "isolation" or the back seat.
Nobody is saying Mercedes is sporty like BMW, but traditionally a Mercedes was only second to them in this aspect, until the Japanese (not Lexus) made their run on BMW and surpassed Mercedes in the sport department. AMG has been around since 1967 and is also part of the MB legend.
A Mercedes was always a road-worthy car, and they never prided themselves on isolation like Cadillac, Linc and now Lexus.
You seemed to be confused about isolation and comfort. A Mercedes has always been a fine compromise between comfort and dynamics like a Jaguar, not a rolling isolations chamber like Caddy and Linc (used to be) and Lexus' 38K Camry. Why don't you read up on the Maybach and S600 then post. These cars are not about total isolation, but simply a blend of comfort and roadability. They most definitely are about "driving pleasure", with 493hp and active suspension is more fun than the current LS430 will ever be.
Jul 05, 2004 (11:01 pm)
Because of MB's (especially the S) unrivaled popularity world-wide, MB has to make the car to cater to different type of markets.
In the US, few S's are chaffeur driven. In Asia, many S's are chaffeur driven. So MB has to prioritize both driver comfort and rear passenger comfort.
In any case, I definitely agree that the E and the ES are not in the same class. The GS and the E are much more comparable, in terms of drivetrain, engine choices, features, and purpose.
GS sales were respectable until the past couple years. A solid 2000 to 2500 per month or so. Not as many as the E or the 5, but much better than the RL or M45 (well, M sales were doomed from the start, since it only offered a V8 and a design near the end of its cycle.)
#5657 of 24726 New Models Shown
Jul 05, 2004 (11:29 pm)
BMW has a new 630Ci coming and the details on the new M5 have been released. A monster that car is.
Mercedes has just shown the CLS55 AMG.
I think I like this...........
What does the board think of the CLS? Designman, you especially.
Jul 06, 2004 (2:18 am)
The CLS is...interesting in its design. I dont think I really like the front end, and the back reminds me of an Infiniti J30. It is very sleek looking though.
Jul 06, 2004 (3:39 am)
Since I commented on CLS a while back (spy shots seemed accurate as I recall) I guess you're asking about the AMG touches? Have always liked them. In the case of the E and S, AMG almost seems to transform the cars due to their conservative natures, less so in the CL since it is more flamboyant to begin with. Mercedes does sport nicely, and their 5-spokes are spot on. These wheels are a little plain though. And the front is a little busy with the headlamps, grille and vents competing for attention… a lot of shape going on there… in striking contrast to the side view where the shapes are basic and spare.
BTW, the new SLK is a major improvement IMO. Could not STAND the original. Harm Lagaay, design director of Porsche just retired and was replaced by Michael Mauer, head designer of the original SLK. As a designer, I can tell you unequivocally that there is no artist who can produce junk-free work, even the best of them. Heck, even Lennon/McCartney and Picasso spit out dubious stuff. I'm hoping we've seen the worst of Mauer with the SLK… Mike, be careful now, this is my brand you working on here. Don't go Bangle on me. Gotta believe Porsche is one place where this can't happen… serious knock on wood.
Merc, think I've had somewhat of a catharsis with the 6-series and heaven knows I've hit it hard. Will explain at a later date. Have to think this through. No, this will not happen with 5 and Z4.
"I'M walkin' here!!!"
-Ratso Rizzo, from Midnight Cowboy
Jul 06, 2004 (4:08 am)
Another thought occurred to me. All current AMGs have swagger, especially the CL, which also has it without AMG. I don't see it with this CLS.
Jul 06, 2004 (5:38 am)
Front is ok, but the side profile is very sleek and dynamic. Looks very sharp except for the "beak" at the front. Not as noticable from the front on view, but from the side it looks a little off. Love the C-pillar area. Very sharp looking.
Jul 06, 2004 (6:23 am)
Sorry, I put the cart before the horse. I guess I got a little carried away. The info. on the 05 IS was purely based on speculation on different automotive forums and I believe one of the major car mags; although I forgot whether it was C&D, R&T, or MT. Anyway, common sense dictates that Lexus needs a wider variety of powertrain just like the competition if they truly want to compete in the sports sedan market. The GS is a half baked cake that is neither a true luxury car like the LS nor a uncompromising sports sedan like the BMW 5 series. Personally, I don't think too many people will miss the car if Lexus decides to end production of the GS series.