Ask the Car People.SM


High End Luxury Cars

24723 messages,  Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum.

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan



Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Messages Page 556 of 2473

#5543 of 24723 by merc1

Jun 27, 2004 (10:43 pm)

What an amazing weekend on this board!
 
All types ridiculousness. The ES330 and E-Class taking the award for being the most so.
 
saugatak,
 
Comments like that about MB's engine designs make you wonder if they even knew that Mercedes did the whole DOHC-VVT thing back in the early nineties up until 1998. They might actually think that this is Mercedes' first attempt at such an engine design. This isn't the first time such an incorrect assumption has been made on this board. This board is very different from the News and Views boards. This is where the sales numbers, JDP, WSJ, Edmunds' spec comparator and CR write the rules. Engine design, handling, feel, styling and anything else car-like doesn't matter and really isn't understood by most (not all though). It could look and drive like an Amana freezer, long as it is gets the nod from the WSJ, CR, and JDP.
 
lexusguy,
 
Someone tried to imply that before about Mercedes' safety innovations not working due to some kind of electronic fault, but never provided anything factual. I've never heard of one instance of a Mercedes or any other brand's safety devices not working, but if you have some proof of this due tell.
 
M

#5544 of 24723 by lexusguy

Jun 27, 2004 (11:13 pm)

Oh I dont. That was just a bit of a jab at Mercedes. I have to think something like that is possible though, considering iDrive can apparently lock up if its too cold out.

#5545 of 24723 merc by saugatak

Jun 28, 2004 (12:27 am)

Comments like that about MB's engine designs make you wonder if they even knew that Mercedes did the whole DOHC-VVT thing back in the early nineties up until 1998.
 
Obviously they didn't. More importantly, it makes you wonder if they've ever driven an MB powered by the motor they're criticizing.
 
Unfortunately, I think MB (and every other luxury car company) has no choice but to go with DOHC, 4 vavles per cylinder and continuous VVT on intake and exhaust as anything other than that draws automatic and unjustified criticism in the lux. car market.

#5546 of 24723 lexusguy by merc1

Jun 28, 2004 (2:08 am)

Well you know I'd have to disagree with that. Airbags, ABS, Brake Assist, ESP, and even Pre-Safe have all proven themselves to work as advertised, with the first half of those features having been pioneered by Mercedes back in the 70's and have since been adopted by the entire industry.
 
Idrive is something altogether different. The safety tech is no where near as razzle-dazzle as Idrive.
 
saugatak,
 
Yep they all have to play that game now.
 
M

#5547 of 24723 Re: [lexusguy #5541] by stevestein

Jun 28, 2004 (10:41 am)

Replying to: lexusguy (Jun 27, 2004 8:27 pm)
Yes, I just get out of the car and walk away when car is in my garage. I didn't lock the doors, merely closed them (and the trunk in one case) incorrectly. With the retained lighting there is no immediate feedback, no BEEEEEP{a function of the remote key lock command) or chimes (key in ignition), and the lights remain on, draining battery

#5548 of 24723 Re: brightness04 [saugatak #5542] by brightness04

Jun 28, 2004 (11:09 am)

Replying to: saugatak (Jun 27, 2004 10:20 pm)
Give me a break. The 3 valve per cylinder SOHC you're denigrating was one of Ward's Top 10 engines.
 
Because it's a mercedes or because it's a good engine? Unfortunately/fotunately trade journals/panels often reserve a spot for past winners (like the last gold medalist automaticly get a spot in the finals)
 
Using one less valve per cylinder and one less cam per wing of the V gave MB the room to put an extra spark plug in the engine, which makes more efficient fuel combustion and reduces emissions. That's very creative.
 
That must be why the the 3.2 liter MB consumes more fule than the 3.3 liter Toyota and not meeting ULEV standards whereas the Toyota does. That must be why MB is finally replacing the 3-valv/2-spark engines with 4-valve engines in the upcoming lineup.
 
MB's 3 valve per cylinder, SOHC, dual spark plug v6 was also the only v6 on Ward's 10 Best that was a 90 degree v6.
 
Being 90 degree unit is a cost-saving meassure because the block is a chop-off of a V8. In other words, it's hardly a point worth bragging.
 
Honda's v6s are SOHC and they're as good as any DOHC v6 out there. So now you have 2 quality companies that haven't gone the traditional DOHC route and yet have done just fine.
 
Honda uses the SOHC on family sedans for the low-cost markets like the Accord V6 for North America (the Euro Accord is sold here as Acura TSX, costing more than the North America V6 Accord even having only a DOHC I4). Honda puts a DOHC V6 in the NSX. That goes to show you where SOHC engines belong nowadays (cost savings); it's a damn shame that MB still puts those (and have one less valve than even the Accord V6) in a car that costs twice as much as an Accord V6 (E series, where the most frequent useage of 3.2 V6 is found)
 
There are several ways of designing effective engines, each with its relative strengths and weaknesses. I applaud MB for taking a different and INNOVATIVE approach to designing and building an award winning power plant.
 
Did they win on name brand, or low-cost? The MB 90degree 3-valve twin-spark V6 certainly is not a smooth running engine, compared to either the Toyota VVTi V6's or even the Honda SOHC V6's, and make significantly less power than either Japanese competition. No wonder MB is finally moving to 4-valve designs in the near future.

#5549 of 24723 by pablo_l

Jun 28, 2004 (1:52 pm)

".. Being 90 degree unit is a cost-saving meassure because the block is a chop-off of a V8. In other words, it's hardly a point worth bragging. .."
 
By that logic, no V8 is worth bragging about, since they're merely two very pedestrian I4s put together, right? And indeed they are.
 
I find it somewhat sad that the basic engine design choices no longer much reflect some brand philosophy, but are merely dictated by baby-boomers naive belief that a V8 is the best engine design out there, simply 'cause they lusted after some big V8 as teenagers. A well designed I6 has better natural balance.
 
But the car world is poorer because customers seemingly believe that an engine with more acronyms and valves and cylinders is necessarily better. I'd have a blown Bentley 6.8 any time of the day, ancient as it is in design, and I actually prefer the Beemer I6 toi any of their V8s. Incidentally, the old Jaguar I6 engine was smoother than the V8 it was replaced with due to buyer pressure. I know 'cause I had them both.

#5550 of 24723 Re: brightness04 [brightness04 #5548] by merc1

Jun 28, 2004 (2:54 pm)

Replying to: brightness04 (Jun 28, 2004 11:09 am)
Interesting points, though not all valid.
 
The 3.3L Toyota V6 is brand new compared to the Mercedes SOHC engine designs came out in 1997 for 1998 models. Everything changes and technology moves one hence Mercedes like anyone else is updating their engines after 6+ years on the market.
 
To say that 3.2L V6 in say the E320 is not a smooth running engine is complete bs. That engine and the 5 speed automatic it is attached to is one of the smoothest V6 powertrains around. The bottom line is that these engines got the job done and back in 1998 when they were introduced they were seen as a refreshing change from the norm of the day. Is it time for them to be replaced, certainly.
 
You're right about the V6 and V8 sharing the same design and block construction for cost reasons, I'll give you that. BTW, the 45K Acura RL uses a SOHC engine also so SOHC designs aren't limited to all Accord-based models at Honda.
 
You do realize that Mercedes has done DOHC, Variable-valve-timed engines before right?
 
Lastly if you look at Ward's list of engines they range from GM to Ford to BMW to Toyota, they aren't biased to certain brand names.
 
M

#5551 of 24723 by lexusguy

Jun 28, 2004 (3:37 pm)

I really have to go with Mark on that one. If Mercedes is guilty of anything its not updating the 320 engine fast enough. In 1998, Toyota's top version of their V6 was 3.0L in the ES300. It didnt have VVT, and made less hp then M-Bs engine. Toyota has updated that powertrain several times since '98 (VVT heads in '99, then the 5-speed w/ VVT-i, then the displacement bump to 3.3L) and MB hasnt changed theirs at all. Theirs isnt the greatest 6 in the world (Porsche's are) but its far from the worst. (Daewoo)

#5552 of 24723 brigthness04 by saugatak

Apr 01, 2004 (4:18 am)

Because it's a mercedes or because it's a good engine? Unfortunately/fotunately trade journals/panels often reserve a spot for past winners (like the last gold medalist automaticly get a spot in the finals)
 
Wards engine awards are trumpeted by ever automaker that gets 'em and you're some guy on the net.
 
Whose opinion has more credibility?
 
That must be why the the 3.2 liter MB consumes more fule than the 3.3 liter Toyota and not meeting ULEV standards whereas the Toyota does.
 
Um, OK, I wonder if gearing, aerodynamics or weight might have an effect on fuel efficiency IN ADDITION to the engine?
 
Was Toyota's 3.0L v6 ULEV compliant when it was introduced? I don't know. I thought the 3.3L v6 from Toyota was updated last year. You'd expect some improvement in an updated engine.
 
That must be why MB is finally replacing the 3-valv/2-spark engines with 4-valve engines in the upcoming lineup.
 
I think the more likely reason is that unwarranted criticism from buyers who insist on DOHC and 4 valves in the luxury market.
 
You do realize DOHC engines come with tradeoffs, don't you? The extra cams take up more space and limit displacement, which is what's needed to provide low end torque and up max. torque.
 
Mercedes is able to offer a 5.0L SOHC v8 which has more torque and power than their competitors', all of whom are offering 4.3 to 4.6L DOHC v8s.
 
I'm not criticizing DOHCs with continuous VVT on intake and exhaust. I'm just saying there are other ways to get things done. And technology ain't gonna move forward if companies aren't allowed to explore alternative solutions b/c of market demand for DOHC.
 
Being 90 degree unit is a cost-saving meassure because the block is a chop-off of a V8. In other words, it's hardly a point worth bragging.
 
It's both cost-saving and a bragging point. I have never driven a 90 degree v6 as smooth as MB's. I would never be able to tell that it's not a 60 degree v6. That's impressive, b/c it's usually not too difficult to tell when you're driving a 90 degree v6.
 
Honda uses the SOHC on family sedans for the low-cost markets like the Accord V6 for North America (the Euro Accord is sold here as Acura TSX, costing more than the North America V6 Accord even having only a DOHC I4). Honda puts a DOHC V6 in the NSX. That goes to show you where SOHC engines belong nowadays (cost savings); it's a damn shame that MB still puts those (and have one less valve than even the Accord V6) in a car that costs twice as much as an Accord V6 (E series, where the most frequent useage of 3.2 V6 is found)
 
I guess I'm less concerned with cost savings and more concerned with performance than you are.
 
If the SOHC v6 performs just as well as a DOHC v6, why do you care that the manufacturer is saving $? Is it your goal to extract every ounce of value out of the manufacturer?
 
Besides, the SOHC v6s are in Honda's luxury line. Acura TL and MDX are going to have SOHC v6s. No one yet knows what engine the RL will have other than that it's a 3.5L v6, but it will probably be a SOHC v6 as well.
 
Did they win on name brand, or low-cost? The MB 90degree 3-valve twin-spark V6 certainly is not a smooth running engine, compared to either the Toyota VVTi V6's or even the Honda SOHC V6's, and make significantly less power than either Japanese competition. No wonder MB is finally moving to 4-valve designs in the near future.
 
Hmmm . . . if all this is true, how come MB's 90 degree v6 is on Ward's 10 Best and Toyota's 3.3L v6 isn't? I'm not knocking Toyota here, their old 3.0L v6 was also one of Ward's 10 Best but I've never found the MB to be a thrashy engine.
 
As for NVH, every Lexus typically has better NVH than the comparable MB. It's something that Toyota focuses on, I don't know that it's due to the engines.
 
As for its power, the MB v6 was powerful when it was introduced. I'm sure MB could update the technology to produce more power, but they've chosen to go with the standard DOHC game. It's clear that's what the luxury markets demand, and MB has to comply.

Messages Page 556 of 2473

To POST a message, please Sign In.

Advertisement

Browse by Category

Browse by Vehicle
   View All Vehicles

Browse by Board
Browse by Topic
View All Topics

Edmunds Community

Advertisement