Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#5092 of 24726 Mercedes disaster
May 26, 2004 (11:03 am)
My uncle owns a 2002 S500 and he curses that car every single day. He said that the day he bought that car was the biggest mistake of his life. Second would be the day he married my aunt. They are still together after 31 years. That car has been to the shop numerous times for mechanical and electrical problems. On quite a few days the car simply would not start. He lives in East Hampton, New York where most of the snobs seems to prefer this 85 grand POS although he told me that he is seeing the LS 430 quite frequently now. He told me his next car would definitely be the Lexus LS430.
#5094 of 24726 Yes! A respite!
May 26, 2004 (12:46 pm)
“Actually the tenor seems to me to be responding to Merc's little lexus digs in his messages. Rather then the other way around.”
Listen, some people throw more than digs at him. Merc is doing what Merc does—defending the brand he loves. Some people take this stuff a little too personally. We’re talking about hunks of metal here, not human beings. Merc doesn’t seem to get personal, even when he’s painted into a corner (or sometimes appears to be).
“Toyota is not alone in styling disasters are they ??? Methinks BMW ain't doing any better either! .”
They’re both pathetic. If you’ve read my posts in the BMW threads over the past year, you will know that NO ONE has denounced the new BMW styles more vociferously than me. Furthermore, I have owned four Toyotas and am a staunch fan of their reliability just as I am a fan of BMW’s superior drive qualities. Styling is another story. All I ask is that designs are tolerable. They both fail miserably on my scorecard. At least there are one or two I can pick out of the Toyota/Lexus mess. BMW? Zippo with the Bangle-era designs.
“Styling disasters and 10.2bln of profits don't go together. If they do what will Toyota earn with great styling - $20bln. They already make more money than the rest of industry combined. Sales volume and profits speak at an astronimically louder volume than people's opinions. Money talks. Opinions are sometimes just wishful thinking or rejection of reality - on everyone's part.”
Indeed, I firmly believe Toyota would jack up their sales even further if they had butt-kicking designs. Their profits may impress you, but I wouldn’t buy a car based on a company’s profits no more than I would choose a wife based on how much money she has. Kudos to Toyota and their profits, but said profits will not come from my check book until they can sculpt something that pleases me again. Could be the next LS, could be SportCross if they throw AWD into, or it could be a Toyota in the ilk of my 1988 Corolla All-Trac wagon (long gone). Doubt we’ll see the latter though. And if they do to the LS what they did to the ES and GS it’s not going to happen. Can’t believe some of you make ex cathedra acceptance of whatever is spit out by them. But hey, it’s your dough. Can’t argue with that.
#5095 of 24726 designman
May 26, 2004 (1:11 pm)
I agree with you that Toyota/Lexus are lacking compared to some of the competition when it comes to styling. Personally, exterior styling isn't among my very highest priorities, but I can certainly understand how others may feel differently.
I don't think manufacturer's profits should be used to decide what car to buy, but I do think that popularity, or unit sales, within a particular class, are indicative of something. If there were a model that I knew absolutely NOTHING about, other than the fact that it was selling well vs its direct competitors, then I would be motivated to at least look into it.
#5096 of 24726 Designman
May 26, 2004 (2:36 pm)
I don't think anyone buys on the profiability of the company. Most probably don't even know the company's profitability in the first place. None of these guys - save Mitsubishi possibly - are going bankrupt or out of business so there's no fear of any auto mfr not being there for service or warranty needs in the future. But to have the #1 seller in the premium lux market and the #1 seller in the mainstream market speaks volumes about where people are spending. So I have to interpret your styling point as meaning the LS will completely bury the rest of the field (being first isn't enough) if it had better styling and the Camry will sell a few 100k more cars than its competition if it were styled better. I don't think bolder styling will accomplish either though I think the hybrids may play a role in putting more distance to the competition. Some realism is needed here as - to Syswei's point - the styling is plenty good for those buying the cars and they are many. It doesn't have to please everyone just a good percentage of the profiled buyers.
#5098 of 24726 Re: Yes! A respite! [designman #5094]
May 26, 2004 (3:15 pm)
I disagree with you...Merc constantly throws in his little digs and eventually people like me (me specifically) get tired of it and respond (to those specific digs)....I don't believe any of the responses have been of the personal attack nature...If any of mine have please point them out and I will work harder at more proper responses.
Others have provided very factual responses to issues Merc has raised....I think their responses are especially helpfull to the discussion and keep the board lively.
Both their responses and mine have however almost universally been in response to merc...Not the other way around.
#5099 of 24726 Re: Toyota/Lexus in the news [oac #5097]
May 26, 2004 (4:04 pm)
The quote is "Toyota will roll out four models in the first year"...which is open to interpretation, but imho doesn't really state that the models will be new, though that's a possibility. However August would mean model year 2006...so, if the new LS is indeed a 2006 model, that might be one of the four. Also, I have seen speculation of a Sequoia-based replacement for the LX, for MY2006.
#5100 of 24726 oac/Syswei
May 26, 2004 (5:05 pm)
I can't see Lexus pushing out the old models in a worldwide debut (excep maybe the SC) that touts its new styling direction. So I think you get a 4 vehicle debut because you only get the new designs (and maybe the SC). I also can't imagine Lexus debuting without its flagship sedan. But the existing LS already sells in Japan as the Toyota Celsior so that's out of the question. So I'd bet the 3 new designs are the IS, GS and LS (as re-designed and fits with CR's report). The 4th vehicle is a mystery. It could be the SC. I think they already have a Toyota version of the RX and the GX so its probably not those. Could be the new LX but its not a volume seller nor is it something to lead with. So is it a new ES kept very secret, the old SC or this highly touted $150K sportscar?? Whatever the new modela are they arrive in the US right afterward.
#5101 of 24726 regarding some recent posts
May 26, 2004 (5:22 pm)
Please keep your messages focused on the vehicles themselves and not the perceived intentions of other members.
And for heaven's sake, doesn't ANYONE want to talk about ANYTHING but Lexus vs. Mercedes? I'm not really seeing the need for this discussion to continue under this pretense of a topic definition if no one has anything different to contribute.