Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#5057 of 24723 Mercedes Recall
May 19, 2004 (11:13 am)
With all the talk on sales and prices, nobody mentioned (unless I missed it) that Mercedes last week announced a recall of 680,000 cars worldwide. This includes E-Class sedans built after March 2002, E-Class wagons made after March 2003 and SL models built after October 2001 because the electronic braking system has failed on some E-Class and SL-Class cars.
The recall affects more than 143,000 cars in the U.S., according to Automotive News.
#5058 of 24723 Re: Mercedes Recall [lenscap #5057]
May 19, 2004 (2:12 pm)
Of course we all saw that. But you weren't supposed to mention it! Didn't you get the secret message?
May 20, 2004 (1:30 am)
"I hope you understand my point that if additional value (prestige in this case) is present to offset the higher price, then unit sales need not be lower than a lower-price, lower-prestige product."
I never denied that prestige favors Mercedes-Benz and it does make up for some sales of course, but this is only the case if the person can afford ($$$) to buy into this prestige. Simply put if you don't have the money prestige means nothing. You seem to imply that everyone can just buy up if they see the prestige, and that simpy isn't the case. Prestige or not, 20K is still 20K and if you don't have the option of stepping up all the prestige in the world doesn't mean anything.
May 20, 2004 (6:01 am)
First of all, 20k doesn't reflect the real world, even at the S430/LS430 level. It's more like 13k there, and less (or nonexistent) at the E/GS, C/ES, ML/RX levels. Just go to the autonation.com website, search for the S or LS among the whole network, and click on 'msrp' to sort by price...the median in-stock S430 is $75,380, the median in-stock LS is $62,189. I know that looking at inventory isn't a perfect guage, but annecdotally, I don't see many people on edmunds or cl talking about shopping for base LSs.
If someone is getting a loan, what does that 13k difference mean, a 36 month rather than 30 month loan, with equal payments each month? If someone is leasing, how much does it mean...a 4 year rather than 3 year lease or something? Personally I've always paid cash, maybe ljflx or someone can help out with the lease discussions.
But I will grant that some INDIVIDUALS may be priced out of the market by the S430. Even if they don't want to buy an E500 instead, the mistake you make in your thinking is not considering the other side of the coin. To wit, there are some INDIVIDUALS who just won't consider Lexus because for them, they must have THE highest-prestige mainstream luxury sedan, period. Lexus just can't be considered, for such individuals. So just as price may exclude some individuals from the S430, lack of prestige may exclude some individuals from the LS.
May 20, 2004 (7:51 am)
Lease differences in some cases eliminate the MSRP differences altogether. Phaetons and A8's at higher MSRPs can be had at lower lease prices than custom lux LS30's and much lower than ultra lux LS430's which are cloesr to their MSRP's. No one seems to care. I paid $40 more a month for my $62K LS430 in 2001 then I would have paid for a $73K A8. I knew I was getting the better car and three years later that LS is worth more than the A8. People who were leasing ultras in 2001 were paying far more than comparably priced A8's and BMW's and in some cases more than am S430. Ultras at $71K in 2001 were going above $1300 a month whereas the $75K S430 I priced was around $1250 per. That was because Lexus was uncertain how well its first $70k+ car would retain value. The joke was that it turned out to be the most in demand LS back then.
I said before a $77K 7-series was around the same lease price as the $65K LS430 two months ago when I leased but I had no interest. Finally the S430 was about $180 more than my 2001 LS430 and the price difference was $13K MSRP. The S500 price difference was about $350 more in 2001 then now but that MSRP price difference was $22K. To anyone above $250-300K in income those lease price differences would likely not be a big deal unless they were fully loaded with high mortgages on a first home or were carrying pretty high mortgages on a first and second one.
My personal belief and experience are that the people reaching for prestige are not the S-class buyers but the E-class buyers. That's why Lexus will more easily convert an S-class buyer to an LS than an E-class buyer to a GS or LS. The other feeling I've picked up is a simple "in denial" thought process that anyone can match or exceed the revered Germans. Many of the people I've met in the past that put Lexus down had never even sat in a Lexus car. When they finally did they were amazed and in some cases converted over on their next purchase.
May 20, 2004 (9:15 am)
The vast majority of LS owners can affort an extra $20 or $30,000 for an S class...Many have owned the S class in the past...
I went with the LS because of higher quality and dependability...I think you have acknowledged those qualities in the LS vrs S class in the past.