Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#5034 of 24726 Price Breakout
May 18, 2004 (12:16 am)
For all those who think price has no effect on sales. Here is just a quick look at MB and Lexus model pricing.
There are 37 Mercedes-Benz models on their site right now..the avg price = $67,646.
Or by each class:
C-Class - $26,570 to 52,170 with 8 models. Avg C-Class price = $35,076.
E-Class - 48,795 to 79,270 with 6 models. Avg E-Class price = $57,807.
S-Class - 74,970 to 123,620 with 4 models. Avg S-Class price = $98,245.
CLK - 45,720 to 80,670 with 6 models. Avg CLK price = $60,861.
CL - 94,120 to 127,470 with 3 models. Avg CL price = $113,386.
SLK - 40,320 to 56,170 with 3 models Avg SLK price = $47,420
SL - 89,520 to 126,970 with 3 models. Avg SL price = $112,420.
ML - 36,670 to 47,120 with 2 models. Avg ML price = $42,895.
G-Class - 77,620 to 94,170 with 2 models. Avg G price = $85,895.
There is no ML55 and one model in the C-Class is the 2004 C32, the 2005 C55 hasn't been released yet.
Lexus has 10 models from $29,980 - 65,100. Average price = $44,968.
These models include the GX470, GS300, GS430, LS430, SC430, ES330, RX330, IS300 Sedan, IS300 Sportback, and LX470.
The average Mercedes-Benz is $67,646 compared to the average Lexus at $44,968 and this doesn't make a difference because of prestige? I can't believe anyone here believes that.
I didn't even go into 4Matic MB models and which tranny the IS has or whether or not you select the FWD or AWD RX330. When you include every trim the average Benz price only rises even higher while Lexus' stays about the same.
The bottom line is that once you get past the C/E/ML and CLK from Mercedes and the ES/IS/RX/GS from Lexus these two are NOT playing the same pricing game. How on earth could sales ever favor Mercedes is beyond me. Prestige doesn't mean anything if you don't have the loot to step up to an S, CL, SL, or G which Lexus has nothing in the same range, price wise.
Lexus only has the LX and LS that play above 55K, while MB has the S, CL, SL, G, and certain E/CLK models. How could this pricing not affect MB sales?
Just a quick glance at Audi, Jaguar, BMW, Acura, Infiniti, Cadillac and Lincoln's websites reveals that nobody else is even close in pricing. BMW comes the closer than anyone else, but they don't have the depth of models. Despite selling the largest number of expensive cars MB is either 3rd or 4th in sales and that is seen as a crisis or some type of failure. That is ridiculous. Just looking at their pricing alone they shouldn't even be a contender in the sales race.
To suggest that MB having more models means they should be reaching more customers is not valid either. These models that they have "more" of are mainly skewed towards the top end not the bottom. The buyers get thinner as you go up and MB's lineup is weighted towards the top end. Everyone can afford a C or ML or most E-Class models, but this isn't the case for a S500, or any CL, SL or most AMG models.
May 18, 2004 (4:46 am)
All I have to say is your theory is obviously flawed of looking at the entire line-ups and averaging the prices. Each lineup is made up of numerous components(models) and saying the sales are higher because price is lower is B.S.
"The RX330 is brand new and the ML is old, this is exact same reversed when it comes to the GS and E-Class old/slow sales, new/high sales."
And this isn't flawed thinking?
1) The original RX300 and ML320 came out at basically the same time with similar MSRPs. And the RX300 even outsold the ML 2 to 1 to 3 to 1 margin.
2) Funny thing is, even when the GS300/400 was new in 1998 it was outsold by the 2 year old E-class by about a 2 to 1 margin. I don't see the cheaper price of the GS helping it outsell the GS from 1998 to current.
May 18, 2004 (5:02 am)
I have no doubt that the average MB sells for more than the average Lexus. But I also have no doubt that the difference is less than the 50% (68k vs 45k) implied in your post 5034. The problem with your analysis is that your numbers are not weighted; specifically volume-weighted. Because MB has a broader model range, the existence of certain higher end models and trims, such as the CL and AMGs, that are priced high but sell in smallish numbers, skews your calculations. More so than is the case with Lexus, with its lesser diversity.
Your overall point about price also ignores the fact that the respective models are not in distinct silos, never to be cross-shopped. You know as well as I that sometimes people will consider the LS vs the E500. There are examples of this on the Edmunds boards. And to some extent this negates your claim that higher prices for some models are the reason for MB's sales performance.
May 18, 2004 (5:39 am)
I can't buy those numbers and this is purely from experience. There is no way the S-class sells at a $98K average. That would bean the weighted volume is toward AMG's and S600's when in fact it is way more weighted to $75-77K S430's and $83-85K S500's. Put it more simple I know a very uppity crowd and not one of them ever had a $98k S-class. I contacted many of the folks I knew when I was shopping in 2001 and the most anyone paid was $86k for an S-500. Most had paid $75-77K for S-430's. I also remember very well looking at the 60 day list of inbound S-class cars in 2001 at the dealership. Heavy weighting to S430's in the mid $70's and S500's in the $83K range. I don't even remember a car coming in that was in the 90's and in fact when I asked about things like ABC I was told that those options pushed the car into the 90's and were custom orders. MB only builds a nandful of them as spec cars.
Just go do a poll on the S-class board - you'll have a hard time finding a person who dropped $98K on the car let alone that being the average. In fact even in reading all the posts over the years the highest prices I saw were a few far and in between $95K AMG's.
Sorry - I have no doubt that MB's prices are higher - but not by the differences you posted and I certainly know the S-class prices and the E-class prices as well. There is also no way the E-class average is $57-58K. I fully loaded the E430 (4-matic) in 2001 and got to nearly $60K. Above that you had to custom order the car. There was a heavy weighting of inbound E-class cars in the $50-52K range which were E-320's. Most 430's were in the $56K range but represented only a fraction of the total E's. The only way your numbers work is with Enron-like accounting.
There is though a big difference between custom ordering MB and Lexus. The MB dealer will gladly fulfill your request annd give you a due date and if I remember even set up a tracking ability for you. The Lexus dealer will do it as a last resort and usually has to be threatened. Who knows when that order will be fulfilled.
#5038 of 24726 Re: maxhonda99 [merc1 #5032]
May 18, 2004 (6:10 am)
You said the following:
"Lexus doesn't even compete in the space above 70K. How can this be a level."
Lesus competes quite well with the $90,000+ 600 SERIES. If we just talk cars specific cars....S600 vrs. LS 430 vrs 700 series..I hope we can get around this Price and Styling Only discussion. Styling, Price, Prestiege, Dependability, quality of the product, Features, Safety, Handling, Ride, are all factors.
We are talking about the best Production cars in the world and just talking my car is prettier then yours or yours is cheaper so it can't be as good as mine is getting old.
HAVING MADE MY MORE MATURE COMMENT I can't help but revert to my true self and add (for Merc's Consumption) The buyers have decided with their wallet which car is the best.
#5039 of 24726 Re: maxhonda99 [michael_mattox #5038]
May 18, 2004 (6:20 am)
Should have said S series which is far more accurate then S600 ...Sorry Merc.
May 18, 2004 (8:06 am)
I agree. The C and the E make up 60% of MB sales. A sales weighted average price would probably be more useful.
Same goes for Lexus.
#5041 of 24726 Re: [jrock65 #5040]
May 18, 2004 (8:20 am)
Of course a sales weighted average would be more accurate. But to get that you would need more information that what is readily available in press releases, etc. For example, you would need specific model breakdowns in the model ranges, ie. C230hatch, C230K, C240, etc. And then since Benz has such a huge variation in prices for each model(for example a C240 can run from anywhere around $32K to $45K), you would need a rough estimate of what the average car goes for.
#5042 of 24726 Lexus vs Benz
May 18, 2004 (12:33 pm)
Whoa, are you guys not exhausted? Pun intended.
Lexus is good, Benz is good, but.....
1. Lex is the better value in consideration of price
and options. E Benz is prettier. S tired.
2. Lex fuel filler on left, Benz on right, huh?
3. I drive a 2003 LS430, 9000 mis, o.a. mileage
22mpg. I check each tank fillup and electronic
mileage confirms this figure. City/highway.
'03 E430 $1000 gas guzzler tax.
4. Again, for '03, Lex has VVTi. Benz does not.
The driving experience is remarkable when the
change lobes with VVTi.
5. Lex has fore and aft driver seat bolster
adjustment. Does Benz?
OK, my 2cents, FWIW. It seems to me you are beating
a dead horse.
May 18, 2004 (1:23 pm)
If we only knew, for example, Lexus' US (or worldwide) revenues, we could divide that by the number of units and get the true average realized price per car. As far as I can tell, Toyota does not break that number out.
We'd have to be careful to use revenues from original new car sales only. I imagine that MB "wins" on the service revenue side, due to poor reliability! hehheh.