Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#4962 of 24726 sales in Europe
May 14, 2004 (10:44 am)
Today's WSJ had European car registrations (18 countres total) for Jan-Apr 2004:
toyota/lexus 275k units, +20.6% from prior year
MB 245k -2.5%
BMW Group 226k +6.6%
BMW core 182k +5.5%
Hyundai 103k +17.6%
Daewoo 47k +41%
'Mercedes officials attribute the decline in sales...to the company's model cycle...Several analysts agreed the slippage was to be expected, though some expressed worry that the cancellation of Wolfgang Bernhard's appointment to the helm of Mercedes signals an unwillingness to recognize quality troubles. "They should open their hearts to the reality that there are problems and maybe only someone from outside Mercedes-Benz can see these problems," said Pia Hellbach, a fund manager with Union Investments in Frankfurt.'
link for subscribers http://online.wsj.com/search#SB108447764299010910
May 14, 2004 (10:51 am)
the above are the only brands presented in the WSJ article, they sourced from the Brussels-based European Automobile Manufacturers Association
May 14, 2004 (2:21 pm)
since the sales figures being quoted are generic mercedes vs lexus, and not S classs vs LS sales numbers, they do not say much. both cars are very successful by every benchmark in their market. that's all.
May 14, 2004 (2:56 pm)
Just to be clear, I didn't post the European data specifically in relation to posts 4958-59; it happened to be posted today because the WSJ article appeared today. I do think that data is interesting because the Asians collectively are taking share at a fairly healthy clip from the German brands in the European marketplace. The Lexus brand isn't broken out from Toyota but I do know that Lexus is fairly weak in Europe.
To continue the discussion in 4958, 4959, 4965, what I'll say is that for the US market, if you look at data from the company press releases or autosite.com, looking at Lexus and MB specifically, the ES outsells the C, the E outsells the GS, the LS outsells the S, and the RX outsells the M. My point of view is that for the US market, those respective models that are selling better than their counterparts are doing a better job of meeting (or at least promising to meet) their respective target audiences' needs.
#4967 of 24726 Pablo
May 14, 2004 (3:09 pm)
both cars are very successful by every benchmark in their market
Successful, YES. But we are talking TRENDS here. Toyota/Lexus sales are trending UP, while MB sales are going the other direction.... How can Toyota outsell MB in their own region ? That will be like MB outselling Toyota in Japan or the Asia/Pacific region... Can you see that happening anytime soon ???
How about what's happening at DCX lately ? Confusion on the Mitsu rescue (board says one thing, company does another !), confusion with stake in Hyundai (sold-off eventually), indecision with Bernhard's headship of the MB line (moved aside Bernhard from the top MB position), can't seem to sort out Chrysler and its money-losing crap-o-cars, slow to accept and address quality issues befalling hitherto rock-solid/bulletproof cars like the S-class (too many horror stories from owners). With such inept leadership by Schrempf, the board rewarded him with a long-term deal ! Just wonderful, don't you think ? The one thing Schrempf has in his resume is the purchase/merger with Chrysler, and that is a failing grade !! Maybe the board likes the direction he is taking the company ? No ? That is why I had cautioned about the Barron's Bank analogy. But of course, many people don't think this can happen to the likes of MB ! Okee dokiee....
May 14, 2004 (3:34 pm)
Again - the figures provided are for the entire lineup. They are not for S or LS, and thusly meaningless when it comes to the point you are trying to make.
May 14, 2004 (9:01 pm)
2003 Year to date sales:
2004 Year to date sales:
Granted, the S-class is near its model run, but that is still a huge negative change, and a corresponding huge positive change for the LS.
May 14, 2004 (9:08 pm)
MB's and BMW's dominance are in the E-class and the 5-series, where they obliterate everything else in their class in terms of sales.
However, their overwhelming lead may not be the case in a couple years, with a slew of redesigned vehicles in this class coming out within a year--A6, GS, M, RL, and STS.
May 15, 2004 (9:51 am)
Those numbers seem quite low - they are lower than German market volumes alone, to witness from
Mercedes S-Klasse 9865 11395 -13,4
BMW 7er 7881 8610 -8,5
Audi A8 6988 4361 60,2
The numbers being for this year, last year, and the change in %. Big winner in Germany has been the Audi A8, and also to a lesser degree the VW Phaeton, since that's the reason both Merc and BMW have lost some volume.
Lexus is nowhere in sight in the German market. Given the volumes quoted above, it seems that the S class still ships in more volume than the LS worldwide.
In any case, this says very little about the merits of the different cars. The Bentley Arnage sells less volume than any of these, and yet there's little doubt that it exemplifies the true meaning of luxury far more impressively.