Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#4876 of 24723 maxhonda99
Apr 29, 2004 (5:08 am)
Well I didn't exactly say they were useless. My position is that there are other things to evaluate a car on. I do take issue with some of the things JDP says because they really don't tell you much other than where a certain brand or car places. Not much detail.
Secondly since this is the board for survey worshipers with a Toyota bias I just had to point out that about Hyundai, which by all accounts were sub-par just a few years ago.
Mind you this is the initial quality survey and a lot of folks don't put to much emphasis on this one. The 3 year dependability study is the more important one. I agree with this.
You make it seem like it has been 20 years or something..lol. A turn around of any kind takes time. For whatever it is worth Mercedes did improve by twenty percent this year, per JDP. So actually they didn't get "shoved down" even further as you put it. I'm telling you now don't look for much or any improvement in the dependability study because for 2004 they'll be looking at 2001 cars. It will take a few more years for things to change on these types of surveys, reguarding Mercedes-Benz.
There is another thing in a carconnection.com article that says exactly what I've tried to tell certain people for years. You have to look at where the models place in these surveys. Porsche was the darling last year and oh how I had to hear about MB's cross-town neighbor is able to do it right and Mercedes couldn't but this year Porsche dropped down because of one model.
Mercedes' main problem children have been that dang ML, C-Class and recently the initial run of 2003 E-Classes. I can't find the link where the S-Class was only second to the LS430 in initial quality in either 2002 or 2003?? Footie??
Some people will now look at Porsche and say that they've lost something, yet the 911 and Boxster are more reliable than ever, it is just the Cayenne dropping their "nameplate" overall. You also have to look at which model might be carrying the weight for a certain namplate. BMW is the perfect example of this. They sell more 3-Series cars than X5s and 7-Series combined, so unless JDP has some type of system in place to make sure an even amount of BMW owners gets surveys, the biggest group (3-Series) of owners are more likely to get a survey. The X5 and now the 7-Series have been just as much trouble as any Mercedes-Benz, yet wasn't (?) BMW ahead of Mercedes until this year on this very same initial quality survey. I tried to explain why this could be in various News and Views topics, but no all I got was BMW is better, while actual 745i and X5 owners were pulling their hair out. Of course BMW will lead if the 3-Series carries most of the weight on the surveys (because that is what they sell the most of). The 3-Series has been around since 1999 so of course it is going to be very reliable now.
My whole point is that you have to do more than count where a nameplate places before making so many assumptions as so many people love to do on these boards. Sometimes it really does make a difference to see where the actual models place, not just the nameplate.
I see. What did you think of the 1990-2002 SL? That was my favorite car on the planet for like 10 years! Well if you're going to consider a CL you have from now until about spring of 2006 to get one. This particular CL I boldly predict will become a classic (long time from now because of the sales numbers) because of it's design. It may just be the best looking Mercedes I've seen since (1986) I've been paying attention to Mercedes.
#4877 of 24723 More JDP
Apr 29, 2004 (5:20 am)
There are some geninue surprises in the model breakout.
The Mercedes-Benz M-Class placed in the top 3 for initial quality! What in the world? Someone either has goofed with the numbers (JDP) or Mercedes actually bothered to address the many complaints about this vehicle. I'll be watching the 2007 dependability survey to see if it holds up. Doubt it.
Cadillac's brand new XLR made it into the top three for it's segment. Interesting seeing as though they only sell about 300 a month, a very small sample of data I'm sure.
I see GM's older, low-tech cars/trucks made the cut: Buick Century, Chevy/Cadillac SUV twins. No surprise there. The CTS made the cut also, impressive.
ljflx - despite all the problems I read about on the SUV board concerning the GX470 it still placed in the top 3. Also interesting.
Ford's brand new F150 placed in the top three. A minor miracle for Ford. Their new product intros are usually followed by recall after recall, problem after problem.
So much to see and think about with these surveys.
Apr 29, 2004 (5:56 am)
Unlike CR, JDP is a "push" type of survey. So if a car like the XLR sells in few units, JDP can sample a largish fraction of the owners. So the survey sample for the XLR probably isn't that small, even compared to, for example, the Camry. Anecdotally, I have repeatedly gotten JDP surveys in the mail for my LX, but not my RX.
The GX being in the top 3. The segment it competes in (premium luxury SUVs) doesn't have that many competitors (my guess would be 5-8), so the GX could still be below average within the Lexus nameplate, but finish second out of group of 5-8.
That ML result is impressive. Maybe we'll be replacing the LX with a R someday...but not in its first year for sure, I can't just assume first-year quality with an MB (unlike with Lexus).
Apr 29, 2004 (6:01 am)
Fair enough I guess.
Replace you LX with an "R"? You mean an RX or Mercedes' upcoming R-Class (don't yell at me if I'm slow here and I dare suggest that you'd consider a MB product).
Apr 29, 2004 (6:11 am)
I meant the R-class. My wife likes variety, isn't so keen on 2 Lexi in the family. I ususally drive the RX, which I'm 90% sure I'll replace with a 2007 LS hybrid. The LX could be replaced by the R, it depends on whether the seating is sufficient for her (sometimes she wants to haul around alot of kids, and all the pics I've seen show 6 seats max) and whether the cargo space is sufficient (with the seats up). Plus it's not clear when it will ship in a hybrid version.
I actually do keep a somewhat open mind about these choices.
Apr 29, 2004 (6:34 am)
Loved that gen as well and like very much the current car. There has never been anything but great SL's in my book.
S-class - I would expect that initial quality scores of the S-class to be sky high. In all honesty who wouldn't be happy with this car during the inital period measured? I think the problems that hurt it are a little down the road - 6-12+ months out. The LS keeps going in the near perfection of the first 3-6 months thus the sky high satisfaction and reliability indexes of CR. MB has to work out the bugs in the S-class that develop a bit later on and as I said, from my reading and personal acquaintances they are mainly electrical. Personally - I don't put much stock in the initial quality index. I've never had a new car I didn't like. Initialy quality reminds me so much of winter storm wishes I had when I was in school and prayed for snow days. Most of those storms started out as snow, many of them turned to rain - and off to school I went. Initial quality of the storms were great though.
Apr 29, 2004 (7:49 am)
When you are right you are right, Mercedes did jump from 15? to 10...Lookin good.
Apr 29, 2004 (7:54 am)
It's posts like ejerod's on the S-class board that scare the daylights out of me on MB. He was in seventh heaven if you remember with the 2001 S - initially. When you come from 9+ years of Lexus perfection its hard to opt for anything that will be less. Isn't that why people became so loyal to MB over the years. They built bulletproof cars that people raved about and had enormous confidence in. I still remember so well the movie "The Four Seasons" with Alan Alda. The Benz in that movie should have been listed as an actor in the credits it played such a key role. The owner, who was played by an actor whose name escapes me (but he's played many character roles including a key role in "Wait unti Dark") was ready to die for the car toward the end of the movie. If you are a Benz lover - you have to see that movie plus the movie is really good anyway though the follow-up TV series failed. It was early 80's if I remember right. MB never really made flashy handling cars until recently. That's also why the AMG business was born outside of MB. Problem for me is I know a number of people like ejerod who fret over their experience - some have moved on, some are still hoping. Personally I don't know anyone whose had a flawless Benz right now and I don't know anyone who hasn't had a flawless Lexus. Hence my belief in the CR surveys.
Apr 29, 2004 (7:54 am)
When you look at it, the MB nameplate is just 1 notch below Toyota, which isn't bad at all!
I do agree with ljflx and merc1 that long-term reliability matters more than initial quality, though.
#4885 of 24723 off-topic
Apr 29, 2004 (8:01 am)
ljflx, imdb.com is a really great site for looking up movie trivia