Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#4740 of 24726 Mercedes-Benz
Apr 18, 2004 (11:28 pm)
Sales -- March 2004
Model March March Monthly YTD YTD Yearly
'04 - '03 - % - 2004 - 2003 - %
C-CLASS 4,825/ 7,266 -33.6% 15,407/ 17,567 -12.3%
E-CLASS 4,971/ 4,456 11.6% 12,802/ 12,725 0.6%
S-CLASS 1,572/ 1,805 -12.9% 4,379/ 5,250 -16.6%
CL-CLASS 265/ 328 -19.2% 658/ 925 -28.9%
SL-CLASS 1,430/ 1,028 39.1% 3,884/ 2,520 54.1%
CLK-CLASS 1,925/ 1,900 1.3% 4,821 / 4,298 12.2%
SLK-CLASS 379/ 554 -31.6% 957/ 1,266 -24.4%
M-CLASS 2,307/ 2,330 -1.0% 5,832 / 6,616 -11.9%
G-CLASS 142/ 170 -16.5% 419 410 2.2%
GRAND TOTAL 17,816/ 19,837 -10.2% 49,159/ 51,577 -4.7%
In even deeper trouble than BMW. They have 4 models that are up this year YTD, but their oldest models S, CL, ML and SLK are all down. This doesn't make sense. A new SLK has been shown and goes on sale in Sept. This couldn't possibly have anything to do with sales dropping off. Funny the 2000 LS400 dropped like a rock right before the 2001 LS430 arrived, but there was no crisis there. Hmmmmm. The C-Class is going through a model change that happens early next month. That couldn't possibly have any affect on sales. The CL and S after being facelifted for 2003 and posting better numbers than in 2002 shouldn't possibly slow down this year. Makes sense. The ML being the exact same age as the Lexus GS shouldn't see a sales drop either. Makes sense. The Lexus GS selling a whopping 69 GS430s in March shouldn't worry anyone at Lexus, I mean really the GS is only facing about a 1/2 dozen newer entries (like the ML is with the Touareg/GX470/Cayenne/X5 etc) so sales of the GS should remain the same, but MB is in trouble with the ML. Makes sense.
Mercedes and BMW are finished, while Lexus goes for "exclusivity" with the GS430 which is rarer than the VW Phaeton, Audi A8L, Infiniti Q45 and M45, and Acura RL all of which are considered sales duds, but the GS430 isn't. The age of the GS430 couldn't be the reason for this. No way. These other cars are just "better".
Apr 19, 2004 (3:22 am)
BMW dealers used to pound their chests with the fact that they didn't have to discount. Those days are over. But we don't see the heavy discounting parsed in the already less-than-impressive sales figures. Although BMW is considered one of the most successful auto makers, they are losing lustre in a changing world. It's much too early for this to sink in, but I believe it is starting to.
The 5-series came out of the gate with discounts. One buyer already reports $3k off retail on a 525. The 7 has undergone heavy price lopping. If the summer brings discounting equivalent to or close to last year's and sales are buttressed in this manner, will sales be considered a success? In my book this is not a feather in the cap of the noble German.
#4742 of 24726 designman
Apr 19, 2004 (3:36 am)
I'm not saying the car is a smash hit or that it is re-writing the rules of the segment, but to call it it a failure based on sales numbers is bull, especially when those numbers say otherwise. Everybody discounts to a degree nowadays on certain cars withing their respective lineups. I find it very funny that certain Lexus' have never sold worth a darn and yet they aren't considered failures.
I personally don't like the 7-Series either, but this hot air blowing based on sales figures is utterly ridiculous. I can understand if a person doesn't like a certain car, but they could at least get the facts straight or get some that supports their theories/views because the sales argument doesn't.
Now that you mentioned discounting we'll have to read about how Lexus doesn't discount. Right.
Apr 19, 2004 (5:00 am)
For maybe the second time, I have to agree with you about Benz and BMW being in trouble. They are clearly not in trouble. BTW, the new SLK finally looks stunningly beautiful.
#4744 of 24726 maxhonda99
Apr 19, 2004 (5:31 am)
Alright enough is enough! That makes 2 posts in the past two days! Who is this using maxhonda99's user id? LOL.
Apr 19, 2004 (6:04 am)
merc2 broke into my user ID and had been rampantly posting posts in favor of MB. Now that I am back in control, let me say Mercedes sucks. just joking.
Apr 19, 2004 (6:42 am)
"Passion" is a subjective term (Hype)
"Reliability" is an OBJECTIVE term. (fact)
Merc. Just curious...What are the Sales expectations for the GS this year??? How many do they expect to sell?
Prestige...When a prestige Luxury name like Mercedes sells cheap cars...Does that damage their Prestige?
Sales SC and 7 series...To use your own arguments since the SC doesn't sell much anyway...does it really matter if their sales drop a little...Not much lost there. If a High profile car like the 7 series loses sales..Well...That is an important development..Don't you think?
Once again Hard numbers for sales or sales decline is not hype..it is fact.
Merc...Yes LS 400 sales dropped off when the LS 430 came out...THEY WEREN'T MAKING THE CAR ANYMORE, THEY DID SELL ALL THE 400S THAT THEY HAD.
Apr 19, 2004 (9:09 am)
"Yes LS 400 sales dropped off when the LS 430 came out...THEY WEREN'T MAKING THE CAR ANYMORE, THEY DID SELL ALL THE 400S THAT THEY HAD."
I don't quite understand the statement. maybe a rephrase is in order.
I think what merc1 meant was the LS400 sales in 2000 were low throughout the year. And that it was basically due to the imminent release of a redesigned LS(LS430). Basically it's sales dropped on 2000 because alot of prospective LS shoppers wanted the LS430 instead and sales also decreased because the product was getting old(less people wanted a LS as opposed to other newer designs such as MB S-class).
"Merc. Just curious...What are the Sales expectations for the GS this year??? How many do they expect to sell?"
I would say 12K to 15K units.
Apr 19, 2004 (11:53 am)
I'll just add my two cents to the discussion..I'd agree with Merc that MB and BMW are not in serious trouble. I'll qualify that with a "Yet" however. You can't ignore the bad press both automakers are having right now. Reliability is still a major part of the decision making process. IF left unaddressed, this is going to start to hurt their bottom line. Anyone have profit/loss data on Toyota, DCX, and BMW?
You could say what Reliability to is MB, Styling to Lexus. It's a problem no doubt. Merc is correct in his assessment of the Lexus product line. The GS, SC, IS, and LX are older designs. The latest generation of Lexus designs are encouraging however. I like the streamlined look of both the new LS and RX. The GS concept still does nothing for me..It's highly subjective isn't it?
I'd like to see Lexus develop an AMG style line, no more of this half hearted L-Tuned nonsense. The Company has been around since 1990, so they've had long enough to get their act together. Also, they ought to turn the SC back into a real sports car, not some retiree cruiser. Ditto for the IS and GS lines.
A sidebar..Which of these cars have the best exhaust system? As a big fan of V-8 engines, I always enjoy a satisfying roar with the turn of the key..The LS430 disappoints in this respect, the old 92 LS I have makes more of a roar when started..
Apr 19, 2004 (12:29 pm)
Well, Toyota definately has the best bottom line. I don't think anyone can argue that. They have a huge cash pile they are sitting on.
"The GS, SC, IS, and LX are older designs."
The SC is not too old, just looks old! It's as old as the current LS. The LX is a older design that is still selling extremely well.
Every carmaker has it's successful product lines, the small percentage of product lines that make up a huge proportion of overall sales. Lexus has the ES, RX, and GX making up about 60% of it's sales. BMW has the 3-series making up 45-50% of it's total sales volume. Mercedes has the C-class and E-class making up about 50% of total Mercedes sales.
"A sidebar..Which of these cars have the best exhaust system?" Are you just talking Lexus?
I'll tell you what, the recent Infiniti's sound great, the G35 Coupe and FX35/45.