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High End Luxury Cars

24700 messages,  Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM

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What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

#4458 of 24700 sv7887 by merc1 Mar 17, 2004 (9:29 pm)
I don't "hate" JDP, I just think on this board the preaching about their stats is ridiculous and to try and portray them as being the bible on car buying information. I'm not sure why you're going into the results again; I'm honestly not disputing what they found.   "In comparing this to the handling argument I presented, Lack of handling doesn't cost $$$..It's more of a perception thing and is highly subjective."   This is exactly what separates the enthusiasts from the JDP/CR crowd, because I personally can tell the difference between a LS and a 7-Series or a S-Class. Secondly seeing as how this board loves to use numbers, the handling numbers don't lie. The German cars handle better, whether you can tell or not is based on your driving style.   I won't argue that consumers place more emphasis overall on reliability, but to say that less than 10 percent of consumer care about handling is pure absurdity. If that was the case the LS430 would outsell a car like the 7-Series by more than 5K units a year.   I don't think reliability itself is overblown, but the reliability argument on this board is past overblown. Reading this board in particular you would think not a single MB, BMW, Audi or Jaguar is capable of providing a decently reliable luxury car experience.   M
#4459 of 24700 More violins by designman Mar 18, 2004 (5:39 am)
Nothing implements our freedom like a car. Nothing. Can you imagine being incarcerated with public transportation? Passion about cars is underrated. When CR notes consumer satisfaction with sports cars as highest, this gets my attention as says volumes about passion. No matter how unreliable a car is, no matter how impractical, when a person has to have a certain brand or make, he has to have it and he should have it. Period. When I hear people talking about being in heaven in their cars, this is where it’s at.   That said, my car is still better than yours. Buy my brand for my reasons. You’ll be much happier. But more importantly, you will validate my decisions and lessen my insecurities.
#4460 of 24700 Context Intepretation by edspider1 Mar 18, 2004 (7:23 am)
"less than 10 percent of consumer care about handling is pure absurdity" True, but I don't think that's not ljflx meant. I interpret him as meaning that 10 out of 100 high end luxury car buyers, if polled would say how well a car handles is their primary concern. They like to push the car to its limits, feel the car. They want to be attached to the transmission and engine. I think in the luxury car market 10-20% is about right. The vast majority in that market want peace of mind, safety, quiet and luxury.
#4461 of 24700 edspider by ljflx Mar 18, 2004 (10:51 am)
Thanks for putting it into perspective.   There are all kinds of enthusiasts who buy anything. I'm an electronic enthusiast but don't ever ask me to build an electronic item for you or explain all the ins and outs. Merc1 is what I would call a hard core enthusiast and when I reference a 10% figure that is what I mean - the pure hardcore auto enthusiasts. Now I love handling but I prefer a great ride first. If I can get the LS430 sport I get the best of both. Why my preference to ride and reliability - I get to enjoy 100% of both all the time and I get to enjoy 100% of the great handling - well maybe 1 or 2 % of the time. Easy logical decision for me - give me better than normal handling with the best ride in the world. The LS (and the S for that matter at least from a ride standpoint) solve my needs and desire perfectly particularly because I'm buying a family sedan not a sports car. Secondly I'll take the super reliability over the fickle super handling cars - which tend to have complex problems - any day. The handling will end up being excess whereas the reliability can never be excess.   Now if I follow merc's logic then anyone who buys a Lexus couldn't possibly be an enthusiast because of what the mags say. If they were they wouldn't ever buy a Lexus - afterall - it's been deemed by the mags as a non-enthusiast's car. I naturally find that absolutely ridiculous and someone should explain to all the former German car owners who've switched over to Lexus - that they no longer qualify as car enthusiasts.
#4462 of 24700 It's all about choice by ksurg Mar 18, 2004 (7:33 pm)
Can you imagine choosing your spouse based on reviews, specs, surveys, and chat threads. That would sure heat up the board. Obviously we all have different priorities and tastes. If I wanted reliability foremost I would buy the LS 430, if prestige were important definitely the MB S500. But for whatever reason I wanted the 745i, which I am still very happy with. I think the real value of this board is the information that helps you understand what each car has to offer. Before you buy it's good to hear from owners who know firsthand the strengths and weaknesses of a particular vehicle. You know... the stuff the dealers and magazines never mention. With that said the "my car is better than your car stuff" doesn't really add anything. Case in point is that I would never get merc1 to like the looks of the 745i nor would I get ljflx to accept the reliability of the S500. However, I am convinced that they both have wealths of knowledge about their vehicles. Anyone buying those cars would benefit from their experience.
#4463 of 24700 there's a special for very every special person... by designo Mar 18, 2004 (8:15 pm)
there are many different type's of luxury cars out there that simply cater to different people.   Most of you should know by now:   The die-hard Lexus LS430 fan will probably stick to supporting the Lexus, no matter what the MB says, and vice versa.   I was a different case, though. After a happy "marriage" with my trusty Lexus LS400, I finally decided Lexus was too borring, and was considering the BMW 745Li and the Mercedes S430. I went ahead with the Mercedes- big mistake.   Granted, Mercedes has a BIG problem with reliability. But the sheer fun of driving behind the wheel of a Mercedes, and seeing that silver star makes up for the number of times I have had to bring in the S-Class for service, ranging from airmatic to power trunk.   What was one of the main reasons why i did not decide to return to Lexus, after more than a decade of pleasant driving experience? Their philosophy. Believe it or not, I finally grew tired of their (Lexus & Toyota) "How about I copy you?" philosophy towards their competition (basically the Germans). Just take a look at the LS430 (part. the '00-'03 model); it's almost identical in exterior to the previous generation S-Class. The next-generation GS greatly resembles the new "Banglerized" BMW's, particularily the new 5er and 6er. Another one is the Toyota Camry; the rear is quite similar to the E-Class. Maybe it's just my personal opinion, but I finally had enough (w/ exception of the SC430).   I'm also tired of hearing people bashing BMW and Bangle for their design-trend. It might be unusual and too-futuristic/controversial, but it's "revolutionary and evolutionary" in terms of design and technology, not to mention performance. Many characteristics (albeit the trunk, which in my opinion, was marvellous and gorgeous, but backfired in the minds of many) such as iDrive have made it into the competition. It might be a little "rusty", but they pioneered it, and often, the one who invents/creates new ideas controversial at first become second-nature later on down the road.   Below is a list I just came up with:   Audi A8L 4.2 Quattro- +Sport/+luxury/+design BMW 745Li- ++Sport/++avant-garde/++design Lexus LS430- +++ Luxury Mercedes S430/S500- +/-Sport/++luxury Infiniti Q45- +sporty/+luxury   What do you think? Mind you, i have absolutely no intention for starting another MB vs. Lex debate. I will be gone for a couple of days, but will check back when home again.   Designo.
#4464 of 24700 edspider1 by merc1 Mar 18, 2004 (9:34 pm)
"" I think in the luxury car market 10-20% is about right. The vast majority in that market want peace of mind, safety, quiet and luxury."   This is true of any luxury car buyer, but it *seems* like you're trying to say that the German cars in the segment don't provide these things. Who buys a car in this class and doesn't place at the very least some emphasis on these things? Are S-Classes, 7-Series' and A8s really that noisy and non-luxurious? Safety? The German cars wrote the book on this issue, especially the S-Class and A8.   ljflx,   I'm sorry, but anyone that only owns Lexuses and raves about surveys, plush riding and sound systems is not an enthusiast in my book. If all the former Mercedes owners are doing the same things now then they aren't either. However it is not all about what a person owns either, its a mind state or way of thinking. You yourself drive any and everything else on the market (Cayenne, a sporty SUV no less) and expect it be quiet and dulling like a LS430. If I drive or ride in a Hummer H2 I'm not looking at the leather. Ultimately it is about choice and its really no big deal, but please don't tell me that buying a Lexus LS430 is in any way, shape or form even close to being an enthusiast. It is the dullest car in the segment. When you get that SL500 or 330Ci then......   If former Mercedes owners now prefer Lexus I'm sure they have their reasons, but at least they've been there unlike most of the survey clutchers on this board.   M
#4465 of 24700 Merc1 by oac Mar 18, 2004 (10:14 pm)
Haven't been here for awhile but can see nothing much has changed.   "I'm sorry, but anyone that only owns Lexuses and raves about surveys, plush riding and sound systems is not an enthusiast in my book"   You take yourself too seriously my friend ! Len is as much an enthusiast as youself. You do him a great disservice by this statement. He cares and he is passionate about his cars as much as you are. Is that not someone that is *enthusiastic* ? Or do only German car owners/wanna-be owners the only ones qualified as enthusiasts ?   Let's see now: Does Toyota not make the very sporty Supra ? The MR2 Spyder ? The Celica GT ? and the IS/Alteeza ? These cars drive as much, if not better than some of their German counterparts. Toyota also has a history of competing in Formula One racing, Le Mans, etc... Long and rich racing history. Can Lexus build a performance car ? Well Denny Clements promised one for 2007. And if history is any judge, they will build one, and my giess is it will be a worthy competitor to its MB/BMW competitions.... We'll see, won't we ?
#4466 of 24700 oac by merc1 Mar 19, 2004 (12:19 am)
"Len is as much an enthusiast as yourself."   He's a great guy and all but he is no enthusiast from what I've seen on these boards, and he certainly doesn't see cars anywhere near the same as I do. You must not have been paying attention for at least the last 3 years. What in the world is passionate about a LS430? My statement was not meant to single him out personally, just to point out the general stick-in-the-mud mood on this board. Did you not see where I said it isn't *always* about what someone owns? It's just as much of a viewpoint or way of seeing cars too. Missed that part?   Like I said before, it's no big deal really, but please don't try to lump me in with the survey watching crowd and then try to blanket everyone as enthusiasts. That's ridiculous. I take myself too seriously? Ok. I'm reminded of a time where a Lexus owner that used to post here basically stated that another poster was an idiot for buying a piece of junk E-Class instead of an LS430. Now that is serious.   What in the world does a discontinued Supra have to do with this discussion? Ditto for a 20K MR2? These cars have nothing to do with Lexus, and all Mr. Clements has done so far is promise. Hardly proof of anything yet.   Would you care to compare Toyota's racing history to Mercedes-Benz's? Hint: Toyota isn't even close. Mercedes was involved in the first races of the automobile and had established their racing rep before there was even a Toyota to speak of.   M
#4467 of 24700 Enthusiast ??? by aggie76 Mar 19, 2004 (2:27 am)
It seems that several folks think that the only definition of enthusiast is that it only refers to someone whose automotive interest in the realm of sports cars with handling and acceleration only.   Reading the latest Merriam-Webster definition says that "enthusiast" refers to "someone who is filled with enthusiam as a : one who is ardently attached to a cause, object, or pursuit b : one who tends to become ardently absorbed in an interest." While the example is sports car - it definitely means intersts can be much broader.   This seems to indicate that we can all be enthusiasts of the automotive world with different interests. I enjoy all the different vehicles for different reasons but most importantly I am an Auto Enthusiast who has admiration for all the manufacturers out there and their abilities to differentiate motors, wheel, and shells to carry people and things.   I value reliability, quality, handling, performance and style and have weighted these differently from my early youth to my mature perspective these days. Today's U.S. public roads leave us less and less opportunity to explore the handling and performance limits of automotive technology. I reserve that enjoyment to the SCCA, WRC, Formula One and other venues now as a participant or observer.   I do however value my time and no longer enjoy visiting my local mechanic or dealership like I did years ago to chat about cars while mine was in for repair or maintenance. I would rather spend time in my business and with my family now that I have achieved my goals and professional success. The desire for reliability and quality is now a much greater priority in my life.   What does all this mean - just being on this board indicates we are all enthusiast's and isn't it wonderful to debate and enjoy the 21st century of automobiles.

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