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High End Luxury Cars

24700 messages,  Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

#4455 of 24700 you're funny, lexus0622 :-) by pat HOST Mar 17, 2004 (3:48 pm)
ha ha   We're not going to vote on who agrees with whom, we're going to continue to discuss our viewpoints. After all, we all have our own points of view to share and discuss. No need to get caught up in "taking sides". Let's just keep the conversation centered on our own personal views without making things personal.   And while I'm here, let me ask that we try to get our focus back to the cars and get away from the merits of the various magazines. I'm aware of at least two discussions over on the News & Views board that are great places for that conversation. This is not the right place, of course.
#4456 of 24700 The Art of Lexus, Act I Scene I by sv7887 Mar 17, 2004 (6:19 pm)
Hi All,   Merc and I were just posting our contrasting viewpoints on the issue. No need to take sides here. I like my isolation chamber..   The way I see it, a man's car is his inner sanctuary. (Violin plays..Spotlight switches on)   "While I'm driving my LS, I feel that the troubles of the world are absorbed by the smooth suspension..The senses are tickled by the sounds of the Mark Levinson audio and the sights of the maple wood and leather trimmed cabin. The stone silence of the car provides a refreshing chance to think and reflect.. You feel as if nothing can penetrate your inner sanctuary. The stresses of life seem to vanish...No deadlines, no bosses, and no wife to drag you to the opera.." (If my wife reads this, I'll probably be sleeping in the car tonight..)   How about it Jag, Audi, BMW and MB owners? How would you characterize your car in the manner above? I think this would be more of a humorous way to express our contrasting opinions...   SV
#4457 of 24700 Buick Park Avenue Ultra by rgsw Mar 17, 2004 (8:02 pm)
When I was comparing/shopping a few years back, I checked out Buick Park Avenue Ultra. None of the two dealers here had the bucket seat with console and floor shift option. The Lexus LS430 won me over because it had a console, buckets, and floor shift. I love the 2004 LS430 six speed selectronic shift.
#4458 of 24700 sv7887 by merc1 Mar 17, 2004 (9:29 pm)
I don't "hate" JDP, I just think on this board the preaching about their stats is ridiculous and to try and portray them as being the bible on car buying information. I'm not sure why you're going into the results again; I'm honestly not disputing what they found.   "In comparing this to the handling argument I presented, Lack of handling doesn't cost $$$..It's more of a perception thing and is highly subjective."   This is exactly what separates the enthusiasts from the JDP/CR crowd, because I personally can tell the difference between a LS and a 7-Series or a S-Class. Secondly seeing as how this board loves to use numbers, the handling numbers don't lie. The German cars handle better, whether you can tell or not is based on your driving style.   I won't argue that consumers place more emphasis overall on reliability, but to say that less than 10 percent of consumer care about handling is pure absurdity. If that was the case the LS430 would outsell a car like the 7-Series by more than 5K units a year.   I don't think reliability itself is overblown, but the reliability argument on this board is past overblown. Reading this board in particular you would think not a single MB, BMW, Audi or Jaguar is capable of providing a decently reliable luxury car experience.   M
#4459 of 24700 More violins by designman Mar 18, 2004 (5:39 am)
Nothing implements our freedom like a car. Nothing. Can you imagine being incarcerated with public transportation? Passion about cars is underrated. When CR notes consumer satisfaction with sports cars as highest, this gets my attention as says volumes about passion. No matter how unreliable a car is, no matter how impractical, when a person has to have a certain brand or make, he has to have it and he should have it. Period. When I hear people talking about being in heaven in their cars, this is where it’s at.   That said, my car is still better than yours. Buy my brand for my reasons. You’ll be much happier. But more importantly, you will validate my decisions and lessen my insecurities.
#4460 of 24700 Context Intepretation by edspider1 Mar 18, 2004 (7:23 am)
"less than 10 percent of consumer care about handling is pure absurdity" True, but I don't think that's not ljflx meant. I interpret him as meaning that 10 out of 100 high end luxury car buyers, if polled would say how well a car handles is their primary concern. They like to push the car to its limits, feel the car. They want to be attached to the transmission and engine. I think in the luxury car market 10-20% is about right. The vast majority in that market want peace of mind, safety, quiet and luxury.
#4461 of 24700 edspider by ljflx Mar 18, 2004 (10:51 am)
Thanks for putting it into perspective.   There are all kinds of enthusiasts who buy anything. I'm an electronic enthusiast but don't ever ask me to build an electronic item for you or explain all the ins and outs. Merc1 is what I would call a hard core enthusiast and when I reference a 10% figure that is what I mean - the pure hardcore auto enthusiasts. Now I love handling but I prefer a great ride first. If I can get the LS430 sport I get the best of both. Why my preference to ride and reliability - I get to enjoy 100% of both all the time and I get to enjoy 100% of the great handling - well maybe 1 or 2 % of the time. Easy logical decision for me - give me better than normal handling with the best ride in the world. The LS (and the S for that matter at least from a ride standpoint) solve my needs and desire perfectly particularly because I'm buying a family sedan not a sports car. Secondly I'll take the super reliability over the fickle super handling cars - which tend to have complex problems - any day. The handling will end up being excess whereas the reliability can never be excess.   Now if I follow merc's logic then anyone who buys a Lexus couldn't possibly be an enthusiast because of what the mags say. If they were they wouldn't ever buy a Lexus - afterall - it's been deemed by the mags as a non-enthusiast's car. I naturally find that absolutely ridiculous and someone should explain to all the former German car owners who've switched over to Lexus - that they no longer qualify as car enthusiasts.
#4462 of 24700 It's all about choice by ksurg Mar 18, 2004 (7:33 pm)
Can you imagine choosing your spouse based on reviews, specs, surveys, and chat threads. That would sure heat up the board. Obviously we all have different priorities and tastes. If I wanted reliability foremost I would buy the LS 430, if prestige were important definitely the MB S500. But for whatever reason I wanted the 745i, which I am still very happy with. I think the real value of this board is the information that helps you understand what each car has to offer. Before you buy it's good to hear from owners who know firsthand the strengths and weaknesses of a particular vehicle. You know... the stuff the dealers and magazines never mention. With that said the "my car is better than your car stuff" doesn't really add anything. Case in point is that I would never get merc1 to like the looks of the 745i nor would I get ljflx to accept the reliability of the S500. However, I am convinced that they both have wealths of knowledge about their vehicles. Anyone buying those cars would benefit from their experience.
#4463 of 24700 there's a special for very every special person... by designo Mar 18, 2004 (8:15 pm)
there are many different type's of luxury cars out there that simply cater to different people.   Most of you should know by now:   The die-hard Lexus LS430 fan will probably stick to supporting the Lexus, no matter what the MB says, and vice versa.   I was a different case, though. After a happy "marriage" with my trusty Lexus LS400, I finally decided Lexus was too borring, and was considering the BMW 745Li and the Mercedes S430. I went ahead with the Mercedes- big mistake.   Granted, Mercedes has a BIG problem with reliability. But the sheer fun of driving behind the wheel of a Mercedes, and seeing that silver star makes up for the number of times I have had to bring in the S-Class for service, ranging from airmatic to power trunk.   What was one of the main reasons why i did not decide to return to Lexus, after more than a decade of pleasant driving experience? Their philosophy. Believe it or not, I finally grew tired of their (Lexus & Toyota) "How about I copy you?" philosophy towards their competition (basically the Germans). Just take a look at the LS430 (part. the '00-'03 model); it's almost identical in exterior to the previous generation S-Class. The next-generation GS greatly resembles the new "Banglerized" BMW's, particularily the new 5er and 6er. Another one is the Toyota Camry; the rear is quite similar to the E-Class. Maybe it's just my personal opinion, but I finally had enough (w/ exception of the SC430).   I'm also tired of hearing people bashing BMW and Bangle for their design-trend. It might be unusual and too-futuristic/controversial, but it's "revolutionary and evolutionary" in terms of design and technology, not to mention performance. Many characteristics (albeit the trunk, which in my opinion, was marvellous and gorgeous, but backfired in the minds of many) such as iDrive have made it into the competition. It might be a little "rusty", but they pioneered it, and often, the one who invents/creates new ideas controversial at first become second-nature later on down the road.   Below is a list I just came up with:   Audi A8L 4.2 Quattro- +Sport/+luxury/+design BMW 745Li- ++Sport/++avant-garde/++design Lexus LS430- +++ Luxury Mercedes S430/S500- +/-Sport/++luxury Infiniti Q45- +sporty/+luxury   What do you think? Mind you, i have absolutely no intention for starting another MB vs. Lex debate. I will be gone for a couple of days, but will check back when home again.   Designo.
#4464 of 24700 edspider1 by merc1 Mar 18, 2004 (9:34 pm)
"" I think in the luxury car market 10-20% is about right. The vast majority in that market want peace of mind, safety, quiet and luxury."   This is true of any luxury car buyer, but it *seems* like you're trying to say that the German cars in the segment don't provide these things. Who buys a car in this class and doesn't place at the very least some emphasis on these things? Are S-Classes, 7-Series' and A8s really that noisy and non-luxurious? Safety? The German cars wrote the book on this issue, especially the S-Class and A8.   ljflx,   I'm sorry, but anyone that only owns Lexuses and raves about surveys, plush riding and sound systems is not an enthusiast in my book. If all the former Mercedes owners are doing the same things now then they aren't either. However it is not all about what a person owns either, its a mind state or way of thinking. You yourself drive any and everything else on the market (Cayenne, a sporty SUV no less) and expect it be quiet and dulling like a LS430. If I drive or ride in a Hummer H2 I'm not looking at the leather. Ultimately it is about choice and its really no big deal, but please don't tell me that buying a Lexus LS430 is in any way, shape or form even close to being an enthusiast. It is the dullest car in the segment. When you get that SL500 or 330Ci then......   If former Mercedes owners now prefer Lexus I'm sure they have their reasons, but at least they've been there unlike most of the survey clutchers on this board.   M

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