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High End Luxury Cars

24697 messages,  Last post on Nov 28, 2009 at 3:09 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

#4449 of 24697 by merc1 Mar 16, 2004 (9:23 pm)
Where do you get that less than 10 percent of the car buying public are "enthusiasts"? How in the world would you know that the car mags comparos are out of sync with 90 percent of the buying public? That is ridiculous. Tell that to all the people who buy BMWs and find them to be exactly what the car mags said they are. Did you or did you not find the LS430 to be everything they said it was??? Boy, if I had made such a blanket statement with percentages attached, this server would shut down due to over posting.   Yes Lexus wins some comparos now and then, but if you read between the lines, like on the latest comparo in C&D you'd see that they really didn't expect the car to win or even appeal to them, the car basically won on doing everything well, which is not a problem..that's what luxury cars are supposed to do. However they never ever said anything about the LS430 being the enthusiast's choice because it isn't.   You really don't incorporate anything from the car mags unless it agrees with CR and JDP.   M
#4450 of 24697 sv7887 by merc1 Mar 16, 2004 (9:37 pm)
The analogy about the BMW and MB handling like an F16 is the same as the reliability issue on this board. Exactly the same. No matter how you view it, the BMW and Mercedes do handle better, the numbers prove it. Ditto for the LS430 being more reliable. If one trait is overblown and ridiculous the other is also, but they are true.   What defines the mainstream consumer for this end of the market? The S-Class, 7-Series and LS all sell pretty much sell the same somewhere between 20-25K, and the BMW rides and handles way different from the LS, with the S in the middle handling/ride wise, so obviously some of these mainstream consumers like the BMW's handling over the LS ride-is-everything disposition.   Let me guess JDP and CR has a survey with the breakout on who is and who isn't an enthusiast.   M
#4451 of 24697 by sv7887 Mar 17, 2004 (8:34 am)
Merc,   I have to disagree. I know how much you hate JDP, but they seem to be the only ones who provide "accepted" stats on this subject. For 2002 Lexus cars had something like 178 defects per 100 vehicles. Jaguar was third with something like 250 and I know MB, BMW are signficantly higher..   That's almost a 50% differential. I'd say that is very significant. It means the competitors to the LS have 50% more problems and as a result cost more to maintain. I believe this JDP survey measured problems within the first few months of ownership. You can't deny that a consumer would be detered from purchasing a car that has 50%+ more issues than a Lexus car. Time is money.   In comparing this to the handling argument I presented, Lack of handling doesn't cost $$$..It's more of a perception thing and is highly subjective. However, Reliablity is a tangible thing that can be easily measured. I think consumers do weight relability more heavily than handling characteristic for the reasons I've stated. That's probably why these CR and JDP studies are publicized more.   I don't think reliability is overblown. I'd venture to say it was the most important factor in my purchasing a Lexus and not another MB. People do vote with their wallets..Back in 1986 I owned a Jaguar XJ6. It was a lovely car when it wasn't in the shop. While more of a purist car, it wasn't worth the hassle. Sure, I'm trading off some handling when I buy a Lexus, but I'm buying piece of mind.   Of course, some "purists" on this board own several different cars and are more willing to tolerate minor quirks. But I don't think the mainstream overworked American consumer has the time to deal with the newfound issues these German cars are having. Sooner than later, this issue is going cost the Germans in the sales dept.   SV
#4452 of 24697 OK, Let's Just Vote and Get It Over With! by lexus0622 Mar 17, 2004 (12:04 pm)
All in support of Merc1, vote "I'm more than 50% with Merc1."   Those who support sv7887, vote "I'm more than 50% with sv7887."   No dangling chads, dimples, partial punches, or any other stuff -- just vote and let's move on (once again). This is objective, statistically sound, and transparent. Pat, you count up the votes and authenticate. That will save the rest of us the time from having to tally the count ourselves.   All votes are due by 5:00pm EST tomorrow (Thursday 3/18/04)!
#4453 of 24697 sv7887 by scott1256 Mar 17, 2004 (1:19 pm)
You said in post #4447   '"Too much of an isolation chamber" I've been reading this criticism for over 10 years..Obviously the buyers of Lexus aren't listening.'   Even if they are listening, the interior of the LS is so silent and isolated from outside noises that they don't hear the criticism.   Scott.
#4454 of 24697 Before we vote, lexus 0622, by warthog Mar 17, 2004 (2:50 pm)
would someone please formulate the issue succinctly? Maybe it's something like, "my car's better than your car!"
#4455 of 24697 you're funny, lexus0622 :-) by pat HOST Mar 17, 2004 (3:48 pm)
ha ha   We're not going to vote on who agrees with whom, we're going to continue to discuss our viewpoints. After all, we all have our own points of view to share and discuss. No need to get caught up in "taking sides". Let's just keep the conversation centered on our own personal views without making things personal.   And while I'm here, let me ask that we try to get our focus back to the cars and get away from the merits of the various magazines. I'm aware of at least two discussions over on the News & Views board that are great places for that conversation. This is not the right place, of course.
#4456 of 24697 The Art of Lexus, Act I Scene I by sv7887 Mar 17, 2004 (6:19 pm)
Hi All,   Merc and I were just posting our contrasting viewpoints on the issue. No need to take sides here. I like my isolation chamber..   The way I see it, a man's car is his inner sanctuary. (Violin plays..Spotlight switches on)   "While I'm driving my LS, I feel that the troubles of the world are absorbed by the smooth suspension..The senses are tickled by the sounds of the Mark Levinson audio and the sights of the maple wood and leather trimmed cabin. The stone silence of the car provides a refreshing chance to think and reflect.. You feel as if nothing can penetrate your inner sanctuary. The stresses of life seem to vanish...No deadlines, no bosses, and no wife to drag you to the opera.." (If my wife reads this, I'll probably be sleeping in the car tonight..)   How about it Jag, Audi, BMW and MB owners? How would you characterize your car in the manner above? I think this would be more of a humorous way to express our contrasting opinions...   SV
#4457 of 24697 Buick Park Avenue Ultra by rgsw Mar 17, 2004 (8:02 pm)
When I was comparing/shopping a few years back, I checked out Buick Park Avenue Ultra. None of the two dealers here had the bucket seat with console and floor shift option. The Lexus LS430 won me over because it had a console, buckets, and floor shift. I love the 2004 LS430 six speed selectronic shift.
#4458 of 24697 sv7887 by merc1 Mar 17, 2004 (9:29 pm)
I don't "hate" JDP, I just think on this board the preaching about their stats is ridiculous and to try and portray them as being the bible on car buying information. I'm not sure why you're going into the results again; I'm honestly not disputing what they found.   "In comparing this to the handling argument I presented, Lack of handling doesn't cost $$$..It's more of a perception thing and is highly subjective."   This is exactly what separates the enthusiasts from the JDP/CR crowd, because I personally can tell the difference between a LS and a 7-Series or a S-Class. Secondly seeing as how this board loves to use numbers, the handling numbers don't lie. The German cars handle better, whether you can tell or not is based on your driving style.   I won't argue that consumers place more emphasis overall on reliability, but to say that less than 10 percent of consumer care about handling is pure absurdity. If that was the case the LS430 would outsell a car like the 7-Series by more than 5K units a year.   I don't think reliability itself is overblown, but the reliability argument on this board is past overblown. Reading this board in particular you would think not a single MB, BMW, Audi or Jaguar is capable of providing a decently reliable luxury car experience.   M

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