High End Luxury Cars

24693 messages, Last post on Nov 21, 2009 at 12:13 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Outline

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#4444 of 24693 ljflx by merc1 Mar 15, 2004 (11:18 pm)
Yep, you're right....they've lost it. How dare Maybach deliver one defective car! Even higher priced German junk. The only "perfect" cars come from Buick and Lexus. M
#4445 of 24693 ljflx by merc1 Mar 15, 2004 (11:51 pm)
I do have one question for you though. I'm reading through your posts here and I'm curious to know where you've combined or incorporated CR AND the carmags into your car buying decisions? You have all Lexuses, and they've never been praised for anything even remotely interesting to enthusiasts, but they are the CR's darling. Didn't you tell me a while back that CR is the single most important thing in the automotive world for consumers and that the autorags are worthless because they don't worship at the CR/JDP alter? You just wrote that 100 out of 100 news programs will carry CR's info, but only 10 out of 100 will even mention the car mags, so why even incorporate them? I'm trying to see where picking a LS430 over much more dynamic/exciting cars in the segment is even remotely a nod in the enthusiast's direction. M
#4446 of 24693 merc1 by ljflx Mar 16, 2004 (8:22 am)
That's easy. It's the car mag comparison tests that I have zero respect for, the cars will win based on what the driver wants. Since most want handling the 7 series usually wins. Heck - they voted the old 7-series as better than all the cars that were redone a few years ago. that was the stipidest thing I ever read. If that were the case why do a new edition. As for them dissing Lexus. Read between the lines and you'll read a lot more. Read the test results and Lexus wins in some cases and they still vote it behind. I remember some memorable posts on this board. these guys - in some, not all cases have yet to accept Lexus. That is their problem not mine. As for CR - I said it carries much more weight with the car buying public than the mags. That is because the enthusiast represents less than 10% of car buyers. Me - I think the individual car write-ups are good in the mags. It's the comparos that are worthless and usually determined in advance by what the car was built to do. It's CR and JDP that tells you what the buyer experience is. The car mag guys tell you an individual - usually predjudiced opinion towards his preferences - which are out of sync with 90% of car buyers.
#4447 of 24693 by sv7887 Mar 16, 2004 (6:07 pm)
Hi all, Here we go again..The Lexus vs German war..I agree with ljflx on the CR front. The results of CR and JDP are far more publicized than those of Car and Driver. CD's bias is clear towards German cars from the start. Their criticism of the LS usually revolves around the "Too much of an isolation chamber" I've been reading this criticism for over 10 years..Obviously the buyers of Lexus aren't listening. We've all debated the nuances distinguishing these cars. What are consumers looking for at the end of the day? A High Quality product that features the cutting edge technology and good residual value. Criticise Lexus as you may, but they fit this criteria perfectly. If the mainstream consumer weighted the handling and other "feel" characteristics as C&D do, no one would buy a LS to begin with. As for this continuing argument over the Lexus being boring...I might have bought that with the LS400, but the LS430 is far more nimble. My LS430 has the Sports Suspension, and it's pretty good to me. I feel that the the differences between Lexus and other automakers are greatly exaggerated. If I were to believe what I hear on this board, the LS430 would be the Airliner equivalent to a 747 whilst a MB or BMW a F-16..I haven't driven an LS with the 18" Sports Suspension package..How does it feel relative to the competition? SV
#4448 of 24693 sv7887 by ljflx Mar 16, 2004 (7:02 pm)
Spectacular. Tight handling with virtually no sacrifice of the great ride. Very nimble. Great car but not easy to get. I wish you could combine the sport suspension with the custom lux package. Great points on your post. Better said than mine as I was in a rush this morning. I'll never take the comparisons seriously. Not even the one the LS won last year. It's very hard for seasoned guys who work for the mags and who've been bred to believe the Germans have conquered the auto world, to ever accept that the old school ain't the same anymore. But as you say the buying public doesn't buy what they say anyway.
#4449 of 24693 by merc1 Mar 16, 2004 (9:23 pm)
Where do you get that less than 10 percent of the car buying public are "enthusiasts"? How in the world would you know that the car mags comparos are out of sync with 90 percent of the buying public? That is ridiculous. Tell that to all the people who buy BMWs and find them to be exactly what the car mags said they are. Did you or did you not find the LS430 to be everything they said it was??? Boy, if I had made such a blanket statement with percentages attached, this server would shut down due to over posting. Yes Lexus wins some comparos now and then, but if you read between the lines, like on the latest comparo in C&D you'd see that they really didn't expect the car to win or even appeal to them, the car basically won on doing everything well, which is not a problem..that's what luxury cars are supposed to do. However they never ever said anything about the LS430 being the enthusiast's choice because it isn't. You really don't incorporate anything from the car mags unless it agrees with CR and JDP. M
#4450 of 24693 sv7887 by merc1 Mar 16, 2004 (9:37 pm)
The analogy about the BMW and MB handling like an F16 is the same as the reliability issue on this board. Exactly the same. No matter how you view it, the BMW and Mercedes do handle better, the numbers prove it. Ditto for the LS430 being more reliable. If one trait is overblown and ridiculous the other is also, but they are true. What defines the mainstream consumer for this end of the market? The S-Class, 7-Series and LS all sell pretty much sell the same somewhere between 20-25K, and the BMW rides and handles way different from the LS, with the S in the middle handling/ride wise, so obviously some of these mainstream consumers like the BMW's handling over the LS ride-is-everything disposition. Let me guess JDP and CR has a survey with the breakout on who is and who isn't an enthusiast. M
#4451 of 24693 by sv7887 Mar 17, 2004 (8:34 am)
Merc, I have to disagree. I know how much you hate JDP, but they seem to be the only ones who provide "accepted" stats on this subject. For 2002 Lexus cars had something like 178 defects per 100 vehicles. Jaguar was third with something like 250 and I know MB, BMW are signficantly higher.. That's almost a 50% differential. I'd say that is very significant. It means the competitors to the LS have 50% more problems and as a result cost more to maintain. I believe this JDP survey measured problems within the first few months of ownership. You can't deny that a consumer would be detered from purchasing a car that has 50%+ more issues than a Lexus car. Time is money. In comparing this to the handling argument I presented, Lack of handling doesn't cost $$$..It's more of a perception thing and is highly subjective. However, Reliablity is a tangible thing that can be easily measured. I think consumers do weight relability more heavily than handling characteristic for the reasons I've stated. That's probably why these CR and JDP studies are publicized more. I don't think reliability is overblown. I'd venture to say it was the most important factor in my purchasing a Lexus and not another MB. People do vote with their wallets..Back in 1986 I owned a Jaguar XJ6. It was a lovely car when it wasn't in the shop. While more of a purist car, it wasn't worth the hassle. Sure, I'm trading off some handling when I buy a Lexus, but I'm buying piece of mind. Of course, some "purists" on this board own several different cars and are more willing to tolerate minor quirks. But I don't think the mainstream overworked American consumer has the time to deal with the newfound issues these German cars are having. Sooner than later, this issue is going cost the Germans in the sales dept. SV
#4452 of 24693 OK, Let's Just Vote and Get It Over With! by lexus0622 Mar 17, 2004 (12:04 pm)
All in support of Merc1, vote "I'm more than 50% with Merc1." Those who support sv7887, vote "I'm more than 50% with sv7887." No dangling chads, dimples, partial punches, or any other stuff -- just vote and let's move on (once again). This is objective, statistically sound, and transparent. Pat, you count up the votes and authenticate. That will save the rest of us the time from having to tally the count ourselves. All votes are due by 5:00pm EST tomorrow (Thursday 3/18/04)!
#4453 of 24693 sv7887 by scott1256 Mar 17, 2004 (1:19 pm)
You said in post #4447 '"Too much of an isolation chamber" I've been reading this criticism for over 10 years..Obviously the buyers of Lexus aren't listening.' Even if they are listening, the interior of the LS is so silent and isolated from outside noises that they don't hear the criticism. Scott.