High End Luxury Cars

24697 messages, Last post on Nov 28, 2009 at 3:09 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Outline

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#4438 of 24697 Pablo - Sales figures for U.S. Ford Taurus vs. BMW 3 Series by footie Mar 15, 2004 (9:40 am)
FYI Re: Post #4431 "The BMW 3 series has long overtaken cars such as the Ford Taurus as best-sellers" taint so per JDP year ending sales reports: 2003 Ford Taurus 300,496 2003 BMW 3-Series 111,944 The entire BMW units sales for the U.S. including MiniCooper was 270,000 for 2003, about 10% less than the Taurus alone (which fell over 9% in 2003 from 2002). I don't think that the BMW 3-series has ever 'long overtaken' cars such as the Taurus. Good point about the 'massification' of the BMW market. 270,000 cars of any one kind isn't very unique.
#4439 of 24697 designman by ljflx Mar 15, 2004 (10:56 am)
They didn't review the Acura TSX either. They extensively tested the TL in February but gave no data on satisfaction or depreciation because its so new. They scored it a notch under highest reliability though (every other Acura is as high as it can go). They will tend to predict reliability based on past models and how other models in the car line are doing. They probably underscored the Acura here. The 5 is yet to be tested and they simply did not predict its reliability. I'd be glad if I were BMW because the 7 scored very poorly, the X5 scored poorly and the 3 and the Z4 were average in reliability. The Cayenne has yet to be tested and CR does not publish data if it does not have sufficient sample so I'd guess the latter is the case.
#4440 of 24697 Ljflx by prattster Mar 15, 2004 (1:05 pm)
Yeah, the new TL being a top pick is interesting since it's been on sale since fall not much time to build a reliability picture but since almost every Acura and 90% Honda's are recommended or top picks CR is pretty confident. Nonetheless, it's flying off dealers lots even prior to this good buzz. Real surprising is the '03 Toyota 4runner V6 being below average but the V8 much better than average. It being the only Toyota on the used cars to avoid list. The GX470 the only Lexus rated slightly below average. What issues were affecting the GX, small 1st year production issues? How the heck they list the LX470 as NA data it's been out since '98?
#4441 of 24697 Prattster by ljflx Mar 15, 2004 (3:57 pm)
They've had the LX like that for years so I don't get it either. The TLC always scores the highest marks possible though. A lot of reported vibration problems with the GX that some have said they have are probably behind that average score. I asked my sales guy what was going on and he said they had no reported problems out of the norm but that Lexus was changing tires because enough complaints had come in. Lexus pretty much switched over to Dunlops and Michelins and away from Bridgestones on the GX as a result. Mine is perfect and I expect it will be that way for the 3 years. GX problems have been way toned down on the GX board so maybe they are gone or very minor now. I had also heard that Lexus was overwhelmed by demand for the GX and had to scramble to up production by 35%. By the way the SC430 also scored only average in its first production year.
#4442 of 24697 by pablo_l Mar 15, 2004 (7:45 pm)
I forgot to say "in Europe". The 3 series is the best selling sedan there, period. The trend will become true in the US too, the trend upmarket is clear.
#4443 of 24697 Pablo by ljflx Mar 15, 2004 (8:27 pm)
I doubt it. The 3 series is 40% of BMW sales and will compete with BMW's own X3 in future. If the 3 were to overtake a Taurus in volume then BMW would either need to increase sales by a factor of 2.5x to 700k cars a year or have the 3 series represent 65%+ of all US BMW's sold. I don't see either scenario happening anytime soon. The 3 is just not that popular and doesn't meet the family needs the way a family sedan does. Merc1 - been kinda quiet. Maybe you're away . But anyway I finally caught up on the Maybach board. Seems MB hasn't made those cars as perfect as they represented they would. Maybe they just can't do it the way they used to anymore - even on a very low volume car.
#4444 of 24697 ljflx by merc1 Mar 15, 2004 (11:18 pm)
Yep, you're right....they've lost it. How dare Maybach deliver one defective car! Even higher priced German junk. The only "perfect" cars come from Buick and Lexus. M
#4445 of 24697 ljflx by merc1 Mar 15, 2004 (11:51 pm)
I do have one question for you though. I'm reading through your posts here and I'm curious to know where you've combined or incorporated CR AND the carmags into your car buying decisions? You have all Lexuses, and they've never been praised for anything even remotely interesting to enthusiasts, but they are the CR's darling. Didn't you tell me a while back that CR is the single most important thing in the automotive world for consumers and that the autorags are worthless because they don't worship at the CR/JDP alter? You just wrote that 100 out of 100 news programs will carry CR's info, but only 10 out of 100 will even mention the car mags, so why even incorporate them? I'm trying to see where picking a LS430 over much more dynamic/exciting cars in the segment is even remotely a nod in the enthusiast's direction. M
#4446 of 24697 merc1 by ljflx Mar 16, 2004 (8:22 am)
That's easy. It's the car mag comparison tests that I have zero respect for, the cars will win based on what the driver wants. Since most want handling the 7 series usually wins. Heck - they voted the old 7-series as better than all the cars that were redone a few years ago. that was the stipidest thing I ever read. If that were the case why do a new edition. As for them dissing Lexus. Read between the lines and you'll read a lot more. Read the test results and Lexus wins in some cases and they still vote it behind. I remember some memorable posts on this board. these guys - in some, not all cases have yet to accept Lexus. That is their problem not mine. As for CR - I said it carries much more weight with the car buying public than the mags. That is because the enthusiast represents less than 10% of car buyers. Me - I think the individual car write-ups are good in the mags. It's the comparos that are worthless and usually determined in advance by what the car was built to do. It's CR and JDP that tells you what the buyer experience is. The car mag guys tell you an individual - usually predjudiced opinion towards his preferences - which are out of sync with 90% of car buyers.
#4447 of 24697 by sv7887 Mar 16, 2004 (6:07 pm)
Hi all, Here we go again..The Lexus vs German war..I agree with ljflx on the CR front. The results of CR and JDP are far more publicized than those of Car and Driver. CD's bias is clear towards German cars from the start. Their criticism of the LS usually revolves around the "Too much of an isolation chamber" I've been reading this criticism for over 10 years..Obviously the buyers of Lexus aren't listening. We've all debated the nuances distinguishing these cars. What are consumers looking for at the end of the day? A High Quality product that features the cutting edge technology and good residual value. Criticise Lexus as you may, but they fit this criteria perfectly. If the mainstream consumer weighted the handling and other "feel" characteristics as C&D do, no one would buy a LS to begin with. As for this continuing argument over the Lexus being boring...I might have bought that with the LS400, but the LS430 is far more nimble. My LS430 has the Sports Suspension, and it's pretty good to me. I feel that the the differences between Lexus and other automakers are greatly exaggerated. If I were to believe what I hear on this board, the LS430 would be the Airliner equivalent to a 747 whilst a MB or BMW a F-16..I haven't driven an LS with the 18" Sports Suspension package..How does it feel relative to the competition? SV