Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
Mar 14, 2004 (8:56 pm)
sorry. I pressed post by mistake.
2005 Audi A8L 4.2: great looking car, but doesn't seem that have the "characteristics" of a flagship sedan (styling...) I don't know.
2005 BMW 745Li: I must be the only guy out there who really appreciates Bangle's styling. Was horrified at first, I must confess, about reliability issues and BMW's iDrive. I am considering one after the "refresh".
2005/2006 Mercedes-Benz S-Class: I am looking most forward to this new car. I certainly hope it will regain the rock-solid, tank-like construction of pre-DaimlerChrysler.
But what I am looking for is a Porsche 4-door luxury/sporty sedan that is based off the 2004 A8L and the Volkswagen Phaeton. Porsche already used the same design for the Cayenne/Touareg (I own a Cayenne S and personally it looks too similiar to the Touareg), and the "2005" A7 SUV will be based off the same shell. Are there any plans for a upcomming Porsche 4-door that will compete with, perhaps the BMW 7-Series or the Maserati Quattroporte? If so, I'll be heading straight for my Porsche dealer!
#4434 of 24726 johncalifornia
Mar 15, 2004 (4:37 am)
You are right to point out my mistake regarding comparing CR survey methodology vs Gallup. But you don't have the facts regarding JDP survey methodologies. JDP solicits car customers (I suspect using state DMV info) via mail. I myself have received two surveys from them (didn't respond to either) for my LX. This methodology is, statistically speaking, no different from Gallup's, and does NOT suffer from the type of possible self-selection bias that CR does.
That CR's sample is self-selecting does not statistically prove bias; it just means they COULD be biased. The fact that CR results are broadly inline with JDP's suggests to me that whatever biases might be present are less than you seem to think. But nonetheless, if you want to ignore CR results that's fine.
But it's hard to dismiss JDP based on statistical methodology.
Mar 15, 2004 (6:36 am)
Another huge blunder by VW is when they conceived the new Golf platform, they didn't think of building a crossover off it. Now they have T-egg to fight RX & FX, but nothing to fight HL and Murano.
VW would have their hands full fighting off the Japanese both here and in Europe w/o making strategic mistakes, which they made plenty of.
Mar 15, 2004 (6:52 am)
In the past JD Power got their new car sales data from RL Polk. RL Polk tracks every car sale in the US through every state's DMV. This is also how JD Power tracks used car sales and knows - via the Polk data - which cars are being held onto. Thus they can survey satisfaction at any time during a cars existence and know exactly where that car went. The surveys are weighted but not in the true demographical (financial data on buyer income) sense because personal data about the buyer is not collected other than name and address. No information company is ever interested in the buyer - per se - just the block of constituents the buyer profiles. Car Fax - which is the company that tracks how often a car is re-sold and has a consumer relationship (the others are all B-to-B models) is now owned by RL Polk but was initially a JV between then and someone else. As I said - I went down this whole path of an auto strategy for my former company but abandoned it because we changed directions strategically due to other opportunities that materialized. Certain members of this board simply refuse to believe it but the auto industry has great respect (and fear) for the CR data and reacts immediately to it. If you notice none have ever been able to successfully sue CR and the quality of the data is the reason. I think I've said enough about all this but I know this whole area inside out.
VW - a company that seems to be very confused at the moment and missed ordinary business matters such as currency hedging this past year. They were too lost on a lux strategy that only made sense if they didn't own Audi or intended to spin them off. Money wasted on the Phaeton would have been much better spent on improving car quality of both Audi and VW.
Mar 15, 2004 (8:35 am)
Perhaps you can answer this? I find it very curious how the BMW 5 series and Cayenne didn't get reviewed in CR. Both were out before the now-venerable Acura TL, especially the 2004 Cayenne which came out last year.
#4438 of 24726 Pablo - Sales figures for U.S. Ford Taurus vs. BMW 3 Series
Mar 15, 2004 (9:40 am)
FYI Re: Post #4431
"The BMW 3 series has long overtaken cars such as the Ford Taurus as best-sellers"
taint so per JDP year ending sales reports:
2003 Ford Taurus 300,496
2003 BMW 3-Series 111,944
The entire BMW units sales for the U.S. including MiniCooper was 270,000 for 2003, about 10% less than the Taurus alone (which fell over 9% in 2003 from 2002).
I don't think that the BMW 3-series has ever 'long overtaken' cars such as the Taurus.
Good point about the 'massification' of the BMW market. 270,000 cars of any one kind isn't very unique.
#4439 of 24726 designman
Mar 15, 2004 (10:56 am)
They didn't review the Acura TSX either. They extensively tested the TL in February but gave no data on satisfaction or depreciation because its so new. They scored it a notch under highest reliability though (every other Acura is as high as it can go). They will tend to predict reliability based on past models and how other models in the car line are doing. They probably underscored the Acura here. The 5 is yet to be tested and they simply did not predict its reliability. I'd be glad if I were BMW because the 7 scored very poorly, the X5 scored poorly and the 3 and the Z4 were average in reliability. The Cayenne has yet to be tested and CR does not publish data if it does not have sufficient sample so I'd guess the latter is the case.
Mar 15, 2004 (1:05 pm)
Yeah, the new TL being a top pick is interesting since it's been on sale since fall not much time to build a reliability picture but since almost every Acura and 90% Honda's are recommended or top picks CR is pretty confident. Nonetheless, it's flying off dealers lots even prior to this good buzz.
Real surprising is the '03 Toyota 4runner V6 being below average but the V8 much better than average. It being the only Toyota on the used cars to avoid list. The GX470 the only Lexus rated slightly below average. What issues were affecting the GX, small 1st year production issues? How the heck they list the LX470 as NA data it's been out since '98?
#4441 of 24726 Prattster
Mar 15, 2004 (3:57 pm)
They've had the LX like that for years so I don't get it either. The TLC always scores the highest marks possible though. A lot of reported vibration problems with the GX that some have said they have are probably behind that average score. I asked my sales guy what was going on and he said they had no reported problems out of the norm but that Lexus was changing tires because enough complaints had come in. Lexus pretty much switched over to Dunlops and Michelins and away from Bridgestones on the GX as a result. Mine is perfect and I expect it will be that way for the 3 years. GX problems have been way toned down on the GX board so maybe they are gone or very minor now. I had also heard that Lexus was overwhelmed by demand for the GX and had to scramble to up production by 35%. By the way the SC430 also scored only average in its first production year.
Mar 15, 2004 (7:45 pm)
I forgot to say "in Europe". The 3 series is the best selling sedan there, period. The trend will become true in the US too, the trend upmarket is clear.