High End Luxury Cars

24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Outline

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#4429 of 24700 Just my opinion by dwongswong Mar 13, 2004 (2:05 pm)
I'm just a 31-year-old man who loves cars. After reading all these debates on Germans vs Japanese, reliability, and electronic complexity, I feel like these debates will go on until the end of time. Let's just agree that it will never be resolved, and let's talk about what we love about cars. I work long hours everyday (6 days a week most of the time), and all I have to look forward to is time with my wife and our families, watching sports, being with friends, and driving our two cars. I drive a 2003 Audi A6, and my wife drives a 2000 BMW 3-coupe. Yes, we do like our German cars. The Audi is very comfortable, roomy, and pleasing to the eyes (both exterior and interior). The BMW is very fun to drive and looks great. Although we've enjoyed having them, they are not the most reliable cars that we've ever had. The Audi has been in the dealership once for rear window not coming up. The BMW has been in the dealership for several issues (VANOS intake system malfunction, molding came unglued twice, peeling of interior parts, and bad cd player). The Japanese cars that we've owned prior to the Germans never had any issue. This is not saying that Japanese cars will not have any problem and German cars will. It just means that this is what happened during our ownership. I've also owned two BMW's prior to the Audi and had many problems with both of them. Even though I had issues with the German cars, I still like them better than the Japanese cars as far as looks and the way they drive. But as far as reliability and cost of ownership, nothing is better than the Japanese. My wife and I want to start a family in a couple of years, so most likely we will not be getting anymore German cars because of the possible extra cash flow that we will have to spend to keep them. We decided that whatever our next car we are going to get, it would have to be Japanese. I'm not saying that the Japanese car that we will get is going to be trouble free. I'm just going with the odds that it will be trouble free. We just went to an auto show to see and sit in the beautiful cars. I still would rather get a German car, but I will have to get a Japanese car because we plan to keep it for a while. If I had $100,000, could spend it on any car to live with for the next 7 years, and pay for all maintenance and cost of ownership, it would have to be the Audi A8L. Simply, it was the most beautiful car there that can sit five, carry a lot in the trunk, had a strong engine, and turn heads. Unfortunately, I live in reality, so we will have to get a Lexus as our next car.
#4430 of 24700 Easy decision for me. by mouseonline Mar 13, 2004 (2:44 pm)
I have $50000 to spend on car, so I test drive MB ML500, BMW X5 a Lexus GX470. It was a very easy decision for me, I picked the GX470.
#4431 of 24700 by pablo_l Mar 14, 2004 (7:52 pm)
Staregically, the move upmarket by VW is very understandable. Yesteryear's elite brands have becme today's mass brands. The BMW 3 series has long overtaken cars such as the Ford Taurus as best-sellers. Luxury has become a volume leader. That means that a brand like VW, which used to own the largest volumes with cars like the Golf and Polo in Europe, and was able to charge a premium due to the perception of durability and quality compared to Fiat and Renault etc faces a big strategic connundrum. Vision wise, they did the right move: they used their cash to buy themselves boutique brands... but there also major blunders: Audi was their natural brand ready to welcome aspiring luxury buyers, but the VW treasure coffins did very little for Audi, and the Audi strategy has remained too conservative - either because of more modest means, or because VW neglected to kick some butt within Audi management, demanding they take more market share away from the other big 2 German brands. Also, one must wonder why VW decided to actually compete aggressively against Audi. It'd be interesting to see a study of Phaeton buyers, and see what other car their top choice was - it would not surprise me if it would be the A8, in which case the Phaeton is entirely pointless for the VW Holding (as opposed to the VW brand). Te whole point about brand engineering is to compete with other companies - not to offer internal overlap. In AutoBild, they wrote an article that talked about how the early Phaeton success was almost entirely at the cost of the outgoing A8 model, which basically suffered the stiffest decrease in sales at the time. It has recovered with the new model, ergo the Phaeton's weakness. Figures. AutoBild also confirms the 7 series is officially regarded as a bust by BMW, and that very significant re-design (internally called "De-Bangling") will take place. The stuck on rear will be entirely gone, as will the angry eyebrows.
#4432 of 24700 Hello... by designo Mar 14, 2004 (8:51 pm)
I am new to edmunds. I have used this board numerous times to help my purchase of several cars, including my '01 S430 Espresso Designo (hence my name). Next year, I am ready to trade-in my S430 for a new luxury automobile. These are the following cars I am considering (seriously): 2005 Audi A8L 4.2:
#4433 of 24700 oops by designo Mar 14, 2004 (8:56 pm)
sorry. I pressed post by mistake. 2005 Audi A8L 4.2: great looking car, but doesn't seem that have the "characteristics" of a flagship sedan (styling...) I don't know. 2005 BMW 745Li: I must be the only guy out there who really appreciates Bangle's styling. Was horrified at first, I must confess, about reliability issues and BMW's iDrive. I am considering one after the "refresh". 2005/2006 Mercedes-Benz S-Class: I am looking most forward to this new car. I certainly hope it will regain the rock-solid, tank-like construction of pre-DaimlerChrysler. But what I am looking for is a Porsche 4-door luxury/sporty sedan that is based off the 2004 A8L and the Volkswagen Phaeton. Porsche already used the same design for the Cayenne/Touareg (I own a Cayenne S and personally it looks too similiar to the Touareg), and the "2005" A7 SUV will be based off the same shell. Are there any plans for a upcomming Porsche 4-door that will compete with, perhaps the BMW 7-Series or the Maserati Quattroporte? If so, I'll be heading straight for my Porsche dealer! Designo.
#4434 of 24700 johncalifornia by syswei Mar 15, 2004 (4:37 am)
You are right to point out my mistake regarding comparing CR survey methodology vs Gallup. But you don't have the facts regarding JDP survey methodologies. JDP solicits car customers (I suspect using state DMV info) via mail. I myself have received two surveys from them (didn't respond to either) for my LX. This methodology is, statistically speaking, no different from Gallup's, and does NOT suffer from the type of possible self-selection bias that CR does. That CR's sample is self-selecting does not statistically prove bias; it just means they COULD be biased. The fact that CR results are broadly inline with JDP's suggests to me that whatever biases might be present are less than you seem to think. But nonetheless, if you want to ignore CR results that's fine. But it's hard to dismiss JDP based on statistical methodology.
#4435 of 24700 pablo by mariner7 Mar 15, 2004 (6:36 am)
Another huge blunder by VW is when they conceived the new Golf platform, they didn't think of building a crossover off it. Now they have T-egg to fight RX & FX, but nothing to fight HL and Murano. VW would have their hands full fighting off the Japanese both here and in Europe w/o making strategic mistakes, which they made plenty of.
#4436 of 24700 syswei by ljflx Mar 15, 2004 (6:52 am)
In the past JD Power got their new car sales data from RL Polk. RL Polk tracks every car sale in the US through every state's DMV. This is also how JD Power tracks used car sales and knows - via the Polk data - which cars are being held onto. Thus they can survey satisfaction at any time during a cars existence and know exactly where that car went. The surveys are weighted but not in the true demographical (financial data on buyer income) sense because personal data about the buyer is not collected other than name and address. No information company is ever interested in the buyer - per se - just the block of constituents the buyer profiles. Car Fax - which is the company that tracks how often a car is re-sold and has a consumer relationship (the others are all B-to-B models) is now owned by RL Polk but was initially a JV between then and someone else. As I said - I went down this whole path of an auto strategy for my former company but abandoned it because we changed directions strategically due to other opportunities that materialized. Certain members of this board simply refuse to believe it but the auto industry has great respect (and fear) for the CR data and reacts immediately to it. If you notice none have ever been able to successfully sue CR and the quality of the data is the reason. I think I've said enough about all this but I know this whole area inside out. VW - a company that seems to be very confused at the moment and missed ordinary business matters such as currency hedging this past year. They were too lost on a lux strategy that only made sense if they didn't own Audi or intended to spin them off. Money wasted on the Phaeton would have been much better spent on improving car quality of both Audi and VW.
#4437 of 24700 ljflx by designman Mar 15, 2004 (8:35 am)
Perhaps you can answer this? I find it very curious how the BMW 5 series and Cayenne didn't get reviewed in CR. Both were out before the now-venerable Acura TL, especially the 2004 Cayenne which came out last year.
#4438 of 24700 Pablo - Sales figures for U.S. Ford Taurus vs. BMW 3 Series by footie Mar 15, 2004 (9:40 am)
FYI Re: Post #4431 "The BMW 3 series has long overtaken cars such as the Ford Taurus as best-sellers" taint so per JDP year ending sales reports: 2003 Ford Taurus 300,496 2003 BMW 3-Series 111,944 The entire BMW units sales for the U.S. including MiniCooper was 270,000 for 2003, about 10% less than the Taurus alone (which fell over 9% in 2003 from 2002). I don't think that the BMW 3-series has ever 'long overtaken' cars such as the Taurus. Good point about the 'massification' of the BMW market. 270,000 cars of any one kind isn't very unique.