High End Luxury Cars

24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Outline

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#4422 of 24700 CR recommends Buick -- that's all I need to know by johncalifornia Mar 12, 2004 (2:05 pm)
One commentator on my criticism of CR's data gathering said: "Your overall point that surveys aren't perfect is a fair one. However I disagree with your conclusion that “the data is flawed and the results are worthless”. Yes the responses are voluntary, but that doesn’t totally invalidate them. When Gallup does a political poll or any other poll, the responses are also voluntary. And the results are, while not perfect, still generally in the ballpark." Please, there is a huge difference between valid Gallup surveying, where the polling organization initiates the response (this is NOT voluntary sampling), and CR/JDP type surveys, where the data source initiates the response. This last "voluntary" type of data gathering HAS NO RELEVANCE among statisticians, because the results will be skewed according to the biases of the respondents. Check the Fox Web site for their daily "instant survey" questionnaire -- the one you can fill out on the spot and then see the "results." Fox take care to say at the bottom of the questionnaire that, "This is not a scientific poll." Why? Because it's "voluntary" sampling. The results have no statistical validity whatever. Neither do CR's by the same scientific reasoning. There is no debate about this -- it's proven statistical science. But the fact that there IS no debate is telling: it's in the interest of the polling groups (CR, JDP) and the manufacturers to keep the truth benind these polls under the carpet. Anyway, no serious car enthusiast takes CR seriously in any form or manner. (And yes, CR do more than describe reliability -- they tell people what to buy, and it's usually a Buick.) Years ago Car & Driver magazine did a brilliant parody of CR. Now THAT is a car magazine worth reading. An opinion by one of C&D's editors carries more weight with me than a bushel of CR "surveys" or their fuddy-duddy recommendations of boring cars.
#4423 of 24700 johncalifornia by ljflx Mar 12, 2004 (4:05 pm)
But for every car enthusiast there are a 100 ordinary consumers who are car buyers and they feel the other way around. Bottom line is most ( a very high majority) will take the opinion of someone who won't take ads over someone who will. Me - I combine both - the world of the enthusiast mag and the world of consumer reports. Plus when every survey says the same thing and I see the same results through the experiences of those I know I conclude that those surveys are right on the money.
#4424 of 24700 John California by footie Mar 12, 2004 (7:03 pm)
I am unfamiliar with the branch of statistics that invalidates the CR/JDP polling and therefore disagree with almost all of your statements regarding their results. Can we take this over to the JDP/CR forum? I'd like to learn more about this!
#4425 of 24700 JohnCalifornia by andy71 Mar 12, 2004 (7:59 pm)
Consumer Report is the reason Toyota has surpassed Ford and Daimler Chrysler to become the second largest car company. Consumer Report is the reason the domestics are losing market share. If you don't believe CR's data that is up to you but don't insult other people's intelligence by stating that CR's data is flawed. CR is a very well respected magazine even among auto manufacturers and you can bet the big three is paying attention to their data. Consumer Report is the reason the big three is trying to improve their overall quality.
#4426 of 24700 It's pretty simple by ljflx Mar 12, 2004 (8:55 pm)
C&D (or whatever auto mag) reports its top 10 cars or its car of the year and maybe 1 in 100 news reports will carry it. Maybe.. CR reports its new car survey results and 100 of 100 news reports carry it. On top of that it gets notable stories in national newspapers like the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times. You couldn't miss it if you tried. On the other hand the only people who know the C&D results are the subscribers. Now - who really carries the weight? JD POWERS makes a high percentage of its revenue from the Auto Mfrs. They respect and react to the data and can't live without it. Naturally the data they get is far more granular than the summary data the public sees.
#4427 of 24700 by jrock65 Mar 13, 2004 (1:46 am)
"Please, there is a huge difference between valid Gallup surveying, where the polling organization initiates the response (this is NOT voluntary sampling), and CR/JDP type surveys, where the data source initiates the response." How is Gallup not a "data source"? It's results seem like "data" to me. Maybe I'm missing something. I agree, however, that people give them too much weight. Some of their rankings are not objective at all, and seem to rely on the whims of the testers. In the display (plasmas, lcd, etc.) forums, their results are pretty much universally laughed at. Just because they don't take ad money doesn't mean that they're rational, careful, unbiased testers. After all, they just have a few people conducting these tests and ranking the items, and they're not experts in that field at all.
#4429 of 24700 Just my opinion by dwongswong Mar 13, 2004 (2:05 pm)
I'm just a 31-year-old man who loves cars. After reading all these debates on Germans vs Japanese, reliability, and electronic complexity, I feel like these debates will go on until the end of time. Let's just agree that it will never be resolved, and let's talk about what we love about cars. I work long hours everyday (6 days a week most of the time), and all I have to look forward to is time with my wife and our families, watching sports, being with friends, and driving our two cars. I drive a 2003 Audi A6, and my wife drives a 2000 BMW 3-coupe. Yes, we do like our German cars. The Audi is very comfortable, roomy, and pleasing to the eyes (both exterior and interior). The BMW is very fun to drive and looks great. Although we've enjoyed having them, they are not the most reliable cars that we've ever had. The Audi has been in the dealership once for rear window not coming up. The BMW has been in the dealership for several issues (VANOS intake system malfunction, molding came unglued twice, peeling of interior parts, and bad cd player). The Japanese cars that we've owned prior to the Germans never had any issue. This is not saying that Japanese cars will not have any problem and German cars will. It just means that this is what happened during our ownership. I've also owned two BMW's prior to the Audi and had many problems with both of them. Even though I had issues with the German cars, I still like them better than the Japanese cars as far as looks and the way they drive. But as far as reliability and cost of ownership, nothing is better than the Japanese. My wife and I want to start a family in a couple of years, so most likely we will not be getting anymore German cars because of the possible extra cash flow that we will have to spend to keep them. We decided that whatever our next car we are going to get, it would have to be Japanese. I'm not saying that the Japanese car that we will get is going to be trouble free. I'm just going with the odds that it will be trouble free. We just went to an auto show to see and sit in the beautiful cars. I still would rather get a German car, but I will have to get a Japanese car because we plan to keep it for a while. If I had $100,000, could spend it on any car to live with for the next 7 years, and pay for all maintenance and cost of ownership, it would have to be the Audi A8L. Simply, it was the most beautiful car there that can sit five, carry a lot in the trunk, had a strong engine, and turn heads. Unfortunately, I live in reality, so we will have to get a Lexus as our next car.
#4430 of 24700 Easy decision for me. by mouseonline Mar 13, 2004 (2:44 pm)
I have $50000 to spend on car, so I test drive MB ML500, BMW X5 a Lexus GX470. It was a very easy decision for me, I picked the GX470.
#4431 of 24700 by pablo_l Mar 14, 2004 (7:52 pm)
Staregically, the move upmarket by VW is very understandable. Yesteryear's elite brands have becme today's mass brands. The BMW 3 series has long overtaken cars such as the Ford Taurus as best-sellers. Luxury has become a volume leader. That means that a brand like VW, which used to own the largest volumes with cars like the Golf and Polo in Europe, and was able to charge a premium due to the perception of durability and quality compared to Fiat and Renault etc faces a big strategic connundrum. Vision wise, they did the right move: they used their cash to buy themselves boutique brands... but there also major blunders: Audi was their natural brand ready to welcome aspiring luxury buyers, but the VW treasure coffins did very little for Audi, and the Audi strategy has remained too conservative - either because of more modest means, or because VW neglected to kick some butt within Audi management, demanding they take more market share away from the other big 2 German brands. Also, one must wonder why VW decided to actually compete aggressively against Audi. It'd be interesting to see a study of Phaeton buyers, and see what other car their top choice was - it would not surprise me if it would be the A8, in which case the Phaeton is entirely pointless for the VW Holding (as opposed to the VW brand). Te whole point about brand engineering is to compete with other companies - not to offer internal overlap. In AutoBild, they wrote an article that talked about how the early Phaeton success was almost entirely at the cost of the outgoing A8 model, which basically suffered the stiffest decrease in sales at the time. It has recovered with the new model, ergo the Phaeton's weakness. Figures. AutoBild also confirms the 7 series is officially regarded as a bust by BMW, and that very significant re-design (internally called "De-Bangling") will take place. The stuck on rear will be entirely gone, as will the angry eyebrows.