High End Luxury Cars

24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Outline

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#4392 of 24700 ljflx by 6sn7s Mar 10, 2004 (1:53 pm)
I understand what you're saying. My comments have more to do with addressing the general comments and issues that the data these companies produced is invalid. Issues like audience sampling size, where they got the samples from, or whether the buyers of certain brands have unique characteristics that may slant the ratings. These are all good points but people also need to realize that given a long enough testing period and a large enough data base these anomalies will work themselves out. The question then becomes, how big is big enough and how long is long enough? Again, it would depend on a variety of factors too numerous and too boring to discuss here. Suffice to say that these testing methods are probably - I don't have all the details on their methods - as good as it gets, in stats nothing is absolute, just a best guess.... a really good guess though : D
#4393 of 24700 As Mark Twain once said..... by vcheng Mar 10, 2004 (2:25 pm)
There are lies, there are damned lies, and then there's statistics!
#4394 of 24700 ljflx and all. by scott1256 Mar 10, 2004 (2:41 pm)
You are right, ljflx - the Merc/BMW/Audi denials and arguments on quality issues are eerily like those of Cadillac supporters in the 1970s. History may not repeat but sometimes rhymes. Probably the Japanese brands will face their challenge some day too. I also think that people with financial means will tire of cars after 4-6 years of ownership no matter how reliable the vehicle has been. Scott.
#4395 of 24700 6sn7's by ljflx Mar 10, 2004 (3:15 pm)
I'm in the media and marketing information business so I know exactly what you mean about surveys and weighting sample pools. Nielsen puts out national TV ratings that drives $50bln+ of TV ads with a sample of 5,000 people. Meager as that may be as a representation of the US population - it is well modelled and statistically weighted - it is still the best measurement out there. I wonder how many people knew their sample is that small. Just think of all the auto advertising that is based on that small sample. I can tell you that JD Powers has phenomenal quality as I was part of a team that looked at acquiring them for my former company in the past. We passed for different strategic reasons.
#4396 of 24700 jumping into the fray by twinsdad99 Mar 10, 2004 (4:56 pm)
On More technological complexity in newer cars: -All car companies need an edge to differentiate themselves from the pack.It can be styling, gadgetry, safety devices, pricing, buid quality etc. On the area of electronics-digital gadgets are permeating almost all facets of the car and have definite advantages that can be used to descriminate on performance (e.g.faster braking; less weight by using non-mechanical parts etc.) and cost of production. It's a calculated bet that automakers make every year on what gadgets or functionalities to introduce. I just think that some companies get hurried up by marketing deadlines and product intros that they screw up a lot.Toyota makes mistakes too, but I notice that they stabilize their production line quality first before they introduce widespread changes and will delay introduction of new functions/gadgets for the sake of perceived quality,even for 1-2 years behind. On JDP, CR, NHTSA, edmunds, etc.-believe or not?: Caveat emptor-but it sure feels great when what you choose seems to be confirmed by a majority of entities that are viewed by many as reliable or by entities that require credibility to continue to function.
#4397 of 24700 by syswei Mar 10, 2004 (5:27 pm)
Some people here like to take something others say and take it to the extreme to make it look wrong. "A Buick is a better car than anything German." Did anyone here ever write this, or even intimate it? No. The only discussion was of Buick RELAIBILITY vs MB, not that Buick is overall "better" than a particular German make. "Japanese ones never, ever have a problem." Has anyone here ever written that any particular Japanese model or carline "never, ever has a problem"? I don't think so. And if one bothers to look at the JDP or CR or other data, one sees that even the best of the Japanese DO indeed have problems...but they have fewer problems than some European makes.
#4398 of 24700 by pat HOST Mar 10, 2004 (5:30 pm)
I think that message was written tongue in cheek? This isn't directed at you syswei, but to everyone - could we try to avoid yet another squabble and just lighten up a bit? Everyone is always welcome to create or join specific comparison discussions if going at a comparison toe to toe is what you need to do. Can't we let this one be a place where we don't have to have these face-offs; a place where we can have some thoughtful conversation about the positives and negatives of the upper end choices available? Conversation, as I tried to say earlier, that does not have to be overtaken with defensive and territorial arguments with each other?
#4399 of 24700 To Pat Host by andy71 Mar 10, 2004 (5:36 pm)
When you are comparing this car vs. that car things always get a bit heated. Nothing wrong with that, as long as it doesn't degenerate into petty insults and name calling
#4400 of 24700 by pat HOST Mar 10, 2004 (5:40 pm)
My point is that this is not a specific comparison discussion, and yeppers, trust me, you don't have to tell ME about things getting heated in a comparo. The intent of this discussion has always been to appreciate and constructively criticize the upper end market. There are other places more appropriate for head to head knock-down drag-outs, otherwise known as the comparos. That's all I'm trying to say.
#4401 of 24700 johncalifornia by syswei Mar 10, 2004 (5:41 pm)
Your overall point that surveys aren't perfect is a fair one. However I disagree with your conclusion that “the data is flawed and the results are worthless”. Yes the responses are voluntary, but that doesn’t totally invalidate them. When Gallup does a political poll or any other poll, the responses are also voluntary. And the results are, while not perfect, still generally in the ballpark. If one candidate leads another by 2:1 on election eve, you don’t typically see the actual result come out 1:2. “You need to research actual shop records and manufacturer data for the brand.” This is a good idea, but I have another that requires less work, maybe you or someone else would like to pursue it: Take two equally-priced cars from different manufacturers, and call up third-party extended warranty companies to get quotes on extended warranty coverage. My guess is that the results would generally track the CR/JDP and other surveys (I am guessing so because I believe the survey data are actually pretty good, but I welcome you to prove me wrong using actual research). Survey work “tends to favor the status quo”. A supposition and I’ll counter with my own supposition. If someone buys say a Lexus believing that it is more reliable than others, but ends up having problems, isn’t he MORE likely to want to complain about it as compared to an MB buyer who was already aware of a poor quality reputation? Surveys should “not the sole determinant of a person's choice of automobile”. Agreed, because reliability isn’t the only factor in choosing an auto.