High End Luxury Cars

24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

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#4385 of 24700 How reliable are CR reliability surveys? by johncalifornia Mar 10, 2004 (8:07 am)
The Consumer Reports staff know their cars, but it's the readers who determine the reliability ratings by sending in their votes, right? If so, these ratings are statistically bogus from the get-go. If report submission is voluntary, and if it's from a non-representative sector (Consumer Reports readers do not represent MY interests or preferences!), then the data is flawed and the results are worthless. For example, I'd wager that Jaguar owners who subscribe to CR are an anomaly within the Jag-buying demographic. (Whereas Buick-owning CR subscribers are probably represntative for the fuddy-duddy Buick-owning demographic.) My guess is that Jag-owning CR readers are made up substantially of traditional American-car buyers who have decided to "take a flyer." They ecountered more service issues than they expected, and thus Jag models get low ratings. NO volunary owner surveys are going to generate good statistics. You need to research actual shop records and manufacturer data for the brand. All the rest is highly suspect, and I think tends to favor the status quo. Why is JD Power so highly regarded? Because the manufacturers quote it all the time in their advertising. Circular reasoning aside, it's a somewhat too-cozy relationship for my comfort. While I'm not completely dismissing these surveys, I think they should be regarded with skepticism and not the sole determinant of a person's choice of auotmobile.
#4386 of 24700 california by mariner7 Mar 10, 2004 (9:23 am)
But isn't JD Power giving pretty much the same picture as CR? And that survey by the biggest drivers association in Germany, it said the same thing, didn't it? One interesting thing is how the Swedes are doing so much better than the Germans. Aren't two Saabs (their entire lineup) and three Volvos on CR recommended list? The Germans place two or three on it. Weren't the Swedes in quality trouble just a couple of years ago? If the Germans studied how the Swedes turned it around, their problem will be forgotten in a few years. And I expect them to.
#4387 of 24700 by sv7887 Mar 10, 2004 (10:44 am)
Hi All, In comparing the quality of an early 1990's Lexus to those of today I was attempting to make a statement of Absolute Quality. I've had a 92,98,and currently a '02 LS430. I paid $42.5K in 1992, $59K in 1998 and $64K in 2002. I buy cash and not lease, b/c I like to hold on to them if possible. I do realize that the trend has moved toward leasing..I guess I am one of the old timers. My statement simply concerned the solidness that the old car possessed. Feel the switches and controls in the new cars, they don't have the solid feel that a W126 MB or original LS does. The chrome on the radiators are thinner, and the switches have this tinny feel to them. Call me crazy, but I thought I'd put it out there. My previous post questioned the validity of the Technology craze in today's cars. I believe that Absolute quality has fallen as a result. Does anyone think these cars are built to last 20 years like a W126 MB or 90 LS? Keep in mind I'm talking about Long Term ownership here (>5 yrs) I point to my statement from my last post: The more complicated the design, the more issues you'll have. What do you all think? SV
#4388 of 24700 There is a term in business: by vcheng Mar 10, 2004 (12:03 pm)
Loss of Business due to Durability of Product. If these cars (ie the high end of the market) last as long as 20 years, it'll drive down the market within a few years, and the manufacturers surely do not want that.
#4389 of 24700 Fair/unfair perceptions of quality. by scott1256 Mar 10, 2004 (12:27 pm)
I agree with others here that the perception of the public is not always accurate. But - seeing big headlines in the major papers highlighting the 'unreliablity' of German cars will help form the perception of the public. Most consumers are not real car junkies and will just skim a small part of the information that is available. Merc/BMW/Audi management is well advised to take the quality/reliability issue very seriously. At 47, I am old enough to remember how Cadillac management and fans dismissed negative feedback 25-30 years ago. It is much less costly in the long run to maintain brand image than to try to restore it once it is lost. Scott.
#4390 of 24700 Survey Debate by 6sn7s Mar 10, 2004 (1:07 pm)
Are CR and JDP accurate? It depends! Car surveys are like TV surveys.... we know it is inaccurate from year to year but that is fine because you cannot possibly control for all anomalies! However in the lager scheme of things the data is vaild because the effects are cumulative in nature - they take samples every year - such that after a number of years the picture gets more accurate and increases in accuracy the longer a trend can be traced. For example, Lexus has won so many awards for so many years in JDP and CR that you really would be hard pressed fault the data. That is assuming of course the test itself is 'valid' - testing what it suppose to. On the other hand, if you get a car model that seems to be good for only one year, it may just be an anomaly. Moral: So when quoting such data, like all things in life, context is critical... think trends not individual years!
#4391 of 24700 excellent points by ljflx Mar 10, 2004 (1:08 pm)
Scott and Vcheng - great points. vcheng - I do think some of these cars will go 15-20 years but there are so few buyers who want to hold them more than 5 years anyway. The market has moved on due to acceleration of auto improvements and stronger than ever competition. Scott - I remember the Cadillac denial also and the MB/BMW version is a mirror image of it. But you know what - it happens in business all the time - in every industry - and it could happen to Lexus and the Japanese in the future as well. CR - not statistically weighted but always on the leading edge and well respected and believed in. Witness all the press coverage it got yesterday. As well getting a statistically weighted car sample is not the same as getting a statistically weighted TV viewership behavior sample ala Nielsen's TV ratings. CR won't publish the data if there is not enough volume from its members hence the NA's on the newest cars. Where it has the volume - and it has plenty for cars like the LS430 and S-class - it publishes its survey results.
#4392 of 24700 ljflx by 6sn7s Mar 10, 2004 (1:53 pm)
I understand what you're saying. My comments have more to do with addressing the general comments and issues that the data these companies produced is invalid. Issues like audience sampling size, where they got the samples from, or whether the buyers of certain brands have unique characteristics that may slant the ratings. These are all good points but people also need to realize that given a long enough testing period and a large enough data base these anomalies will work themselves out. The question then becomes, how big is big enough and how long is long enough? Again, it would depend on a variety of factors too numerous and too boring to discuss here. Suffice to say that these testing methods are probably - I don't have all the details on their methods - as good as it gets, in stats nothing is absolute, just a best guess.... a really good guess though : D
#4393 of 24700 As Mark Twain once said..... by vcheng Mar 10, 2004 (2:25 pm)
There are lies, there are damned lies, and then there's statistics!
#4394 of 24700 ljflx and all. by scott1256 Mar 10, 2004 (2:41 pm)
You are right, ljflx - the Merc/BMW/Audi denials and arguments on quality issues are eerily like those of Cadillac supporters in the 1970s. History may not repeat but sometimes rhymes. Probably the Japanese brands will face their challenge some day too. I also think that people with financial means will tire of cars after 4-6 years of ownership no matter how reliable the vehicle has been. Scott.