High End Luxury Cars

24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Outline

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#4379 of 24700 designman by merc1 Mar 09, 2004 (9:48 pm)
I remember the concept clearly...the Cadillac Cien. I agree on the styling, it was a gorgeous and edgy excercise. It carried Cadillac's new styling theme better than anything since, especially the CTS and XLR, both of which could use some softening, imo. shipo, Be careful with that view expressed in your post #4376 particularly that second paragraph, as the surveys and CR rule this board, nothing else matters, including knowledge about the cars themselves, CR/JDP history or anything else. A Buick is a better car than anything German. M
#4380 of 24700 by designman Mar 10, 2004 (5:36 am)
shipo... I agree with the overrated/underrated extremes that car buyers go to as you suggest. As a note, my father bought a Hyundai around the time they first came out. Geez was it tinny and couldn’t get out of its own way, but it just kept running to my surprise and delight. sv7887... If I could have one wish granted with cars, it would probably be to reduce the electronics and gimmickry. I agree it is out of hand and getting worse. There are more heating zones in luxury cars than there are in most homes. My wife brought our 03 BMW 530 in for a simple oil change yesterday and it comes back with the computer reset. The on/off characteristics of the lights are now in a manual mode. So now I have to make another trip back to get it reset to our preferences. Wouldn’t mind if you could do it yourself, like resetting the radio stations, but you become dealer-dependent. The proprietary aspect also handcuffs us. merc1... gear up sir. What with the latest CR deal I think German cars are going to be taking a beating around these threads whether it is deserved or not. It wouldn’t trouble me though. Living in the shadow of big brother 911 and less expensive stars like the S2000 and 350Z, my Boxster often takes a pounding. But I know exactly what I want and am very comfortable with where my passions lie. In the end, however, I think the fierce competition is very healthy for all brands. And as much as I disagree with many of the posters, I am thoroughly entertained by their takes and the candor we couldn't possibly find in a cocktail conversation. You have to admit, this place is a gas.
#4381 of 24700 designman by merc1 Mar 10, 2004 (5:46 am)
Oh no, I'm done with the reliability debate, especially on this board. There really is nothing to debate, German cars are junk and the Japanese ones never, ever have a problem. Never. Me? I'm going to get a Buick. Nice and simple obsolete technology can't be beat for reliability...lol. M
#4382 of 24700 sv7887 by ljflx Mar 10, 2004 (6:26 am)
Don't know what you see in your car but I've had the 95, 98 and 2001 LS430's and they just keeping getting better and better. I'm about to take a 2004 LS430 and gave some serious thought to buying out my 2001 because it is so good. Interior is better than ever and I don't see any departure from the excellent switch gear that has been in the car in the past. I don't think they've ever changed it nor do they need to. I'll tell you what is best of all. My lease on the 2004 - which if I get the car I want - will have a $62k sticker (but I may opt for the full ultra lux model) and will price out at $10 a month less than the 1995 I had which had a $56.5k sticker. The 2004 is naturally a safer car and has far more equipment included. I realize some of that is interest rate reduction but some of it is also because the LS430 now has one of the highest residual values in the industry. merc1 - you'd look great behind the wheel of a Buick. All kidding aside - the NY news media and evening reports had a field day with BMW and Mercedes yesterday. I hope the German execs were paying attention because it's reports like those - which are widespread and can't be missed or forgotten - that make reality overtake perception. You don't think Buick will play up that tidbit as future marketing hype?
#4383 of 24700 Quality by edspider1 Mar 10, 2004 (7:45 am)
I don't think it makes a lot of sense to compare old model reliability with new models. The market demands technology. The market for 2004 MY cars with 1990 technology is tiny. When I moved to Lexus from MB in 2001 it wasn't because of quality, it was because of features. Only in the last year or so did I connect the absence of LS problems compared to my 98 E Class experience. The MB was out of pocket for 40 days while they replaced the engine. The parking lights would burn out every 60 days until a recall finally fixed the problem. Lucky for me I still see Lexus has having the highest techology and I get the quality build as a bonus! They don't have all the gadgets though. Lexus botched XM radio. Their NAV lacks the 3D birdeye view. They still haven't made radar pre-crash available. There is no display showing what audio system is playing.
#4384 of 24700 merc1 replaces Tiger Woods as Buick Spokesperson! by scottphillip Mar 10, 2004 (7:50 am)
As a Lexus owner, I ran out and bought the new CR. I drive a Best Pick!! Maybe I can buy a decal for my RX330 announcing how smart I am... sv7887...Sometimes I do wish that the autos were simpler. I really liked my 1992 Q45 because of its uncluttered dash and relative simplicity. I don't recall having any problems during my 24 month lease. On the other hand, I enjoyed all the gadgets on my LS430 and RX330 and haven't experienced any problems with them. merc1...Wouldn't you really rather drive a Buick?
#4385 of 24700 How reliable are CR reliability surveys? by johncalifornia Mar 10, 2004 (8:07 am)
The Consumer Reports staff know their cars, but it's the readers who determine the reliability ratings by sending in their votes, right? If so, these ratings are statistically bogus from the get-go. If report submission is voluntary, and if it's from a non-representative sector (Consumer Reports readers do not represent MY interests or preferences!), then the data is flawed and the results are worthless. For example, I'd wager that Jaguar owners who subscribe to CR are an anomaly within the Jag-buying demographic. (Whereas Buick-owning CR subscribers are probably represntative for the fuddy-duddy Buick-owning demographic.) My guess is that Jag-owning CR readers are made up substantially of traditional American-car buyers who have decided to "take a flyer." They ecountered more service issues than they expected, and thus Jag models get low ratings. NO volunary owner surveys are going to generate good statistics. You need to research actual shop records and manufacturer data for the brand. All the rest is highly suspect, and I think tends to favor the status quo. Why is JD Power so highly regarded? Because the manufacturers quote it all the time in their advertising. Circular reasoning aside, it's a somewhat too-cozy relationship for my comfort. While I'm not completely dismissing these surveys, I think they should be regarded with skepticism and not the sole determinant of a person's choice of auotmobile.
#4386 of 24700 california by mariner7 Mar 10, 2004 (9:23 am)
But isn't JD Power giving pretty much the same picture as CR? And that survey by the biggest drivers association in Germany, it said the same thing, didn't it? One interesting thing is how the Swedes are doing so much better than the Germans. Aren't two Saabs (their entire lineup) and three Volvos on CR recommended list? The Germans place two or three on it. Weren't the Swedes in quality trouble just a couple of years ago? If the Germans studied how the Swedes turned it around, their problem will be forgotten in a few years. And I expect them to.
#4387 of 24700 by sv7887 Mar 10, 2004 (10:44 am)
Hi All, In comparing the quality of an early 1990's Lexus to those of today I was attempting to make a statement of Absolute Quality. I've had a 92,98,and currently a '02 LS430. I paid $42.5K in 1992, $59K in 1998 and $64K in 2002. I buy cash and not lease, b/c I like to hold on to them if possible. I do realize that the trend has moved toward leasing..I guess I am one of the old timers. My statement simply concerned the solidness that the old car possessed. Feel the switches and controls in the new cars, they don't have the solid feel that a W126 MB or original LS does. The chrome on the radiators are thinner, and the switches have this tinny feel to them. Call me crazy, but I thought I'd put it out there. My previous post questioned the validity of the Technology craze in today's cars. I believe that Absolute quality has fallen as a result. Does anyone think these cars are built to last 20 years like a W126 MB or 90 LS? Keep in mind I'm talking about Long Term ownership here (>5 yrs) I point to my statement from my last post: The more complicated the design, the more issues you'll have. What do you all think? SV
#4388 of 24700 There is a term in business: by vcheng Mar 10, 2004 (12:03 pm)
Loss of Business due to Durability of Product. If these cars (ie the high end of the market) last as long as 20 years, it'll drive down the market within a few years, and the manufacturers surely do not want that.