High End Luxury Cars

24693 messages, Last post on Nov 21, 2009 at 12:13 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Outline

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#4363 of 24693 Something Totally Different by merc1 Mar 08, 2004 (12:09 am)
There was a recent Automobile magazine article that stated "there is an old joke that says BMW's marketing is determined in Stuttgart", meaning that BMW's product lineup is influenced by Mercedes-Benz. For what MB does, BMW must answer in most cases, but vice versa also applies, but most of the time MB does the leading. Car and Driver has also stated that these two companies have more effect on each other than their competition does. This was stated most recently in their comparison of the CLK55 AMG and M3 a while back. Autospies recently published photos from the Detroit show showing BMW head designer, Chris Bangle and some other top BMW execs inspecting the Mercedes GST concept crossover. It is reported that BMW now has at the very least has a plan on the drawing board to develop a GST like vehicle. So far the rumor mill has them pegged as the V-Series: V3, V5 and possibly a V7..you know to mirror the X3, X5 and the once proposed X7. Now Automotive News is showing BMW CEO Helmut Panke in the front seat of the CLS 500, while BMW production Chief Burkhard Göschel "looks on" at the Geneva motor show. Now of course BMW has influenced Mercedes to try and go sportier, especially with the C-Class. The C-Class for 2005 gets another round of chassis improvements in keeping with this belief of BMW's influence. Will Mercedes go for an idrive like system in the 2006 S-Class? Will BMW build a 4-door Coupe-like vehicle if the CLS is a hit? Interesting stuff. M
#4364 of 24693 Cien by designman Mar 09, 2004 (5:15 am)
Merc1, I’d be interested to hear what you (or anyone else) think of the Cadillac concept cars. I’m really hot on Cien. This one has the styling that has been brought home, finished up and nailed down the way I expect—the swagger and forward-thinking that only comes from Lamborghini. CTS had the idea, but Cien has the details. It’s a perfect study in assymetry... complex, striking proportions yet extremely balanced. I particularly like the harmony among flat and curved surfaces. If Cien ever makes it to the street, I would seriously consider it based on style alone. Any brains, performance and reliability that comes with it would only be icing on the cake. Too much to ask for? I suppose so. But this is not your father’s Cadillac, and it’s no Allante. I really hope they can make a go of it and shed that stigma. There’s a lot of inertia to overcome and I don’t think XLR is going to help the cause. But in any event, Cadillac is indeed providing some interest and worth watching. I know they take a beating in the minds of foreign-car buyers, but I try not to curse the darkness.
#4365 of 24693 Consumer reports by ljflx Mar 09, 2004 (7:49 am)
Japanese continue to dominate the CR best lists and reliability (if you read the magazine article) seems to be higher than ever while European reliability seems to be worse than ever. One thing of interest is that they thought the S-class ride was actually a tad bit better and more sullen than the LS430 which is the exact opposite of what I have found in the past. This however is the ultimate battle as both cars have phenomenal ride quality. It's clear that CR considers the S and LS the best mass production cars on the planet but the S loses out because of poor reliability. The other thing is that the S is only average in customer satisfaction which must be tied to a combination of its poor reliability and high anticipations of the buyer. The LS scored highest marks possible in all categories including depreciation. 7 series was considered to miss the mark as a luxury sedan (my take is because of the difficulty with iDrive and performing ordinary tasks whilee driving) and scored awful in reliabilty and average in satisfaction and depreciation. It was considered very quiet but lacking a great ride. The A8 is too new to be rated (as was the Phaeton) but its clear CR was quite impressed with it. The Jag was considered a classic car but its ride, interior comfort and quietness trailed the S and LS. The Q scored high in reliabilty but misses the mark as a world class car. The Passat tied in a top category as it had average reliabilty. The Passat commercial with the woman test driving a car and passing an unmarked state trooper is one of the best auto ads I've seen recently. The look on the troopers face as he's passed, the auto salesman's face when he realizes what just happened and the excitement on the woman's face as she looks at the auto saleman for approval to pass beforehand all desreve Clio awards. http://money.cnn.com/2004/03/08/pf/autos/CR_best_cars/index.htm?c- - - nn=yes
#4366 of 24693 WSJ's take on CR by syswei Mar 09, 2004 (7:58 am)
http://online.wsj.com/wsjgate?subURI=%2Farticle%2F0%2C%2CSB107878- 359727249579%2Demail%2C00%2Ehtml&nonsubURI=%2Farticle%5Femail- %2F0%2C%2CSB107878359727249579%2DIhjgYNllal3npuobYCGaq6Hm5%2C00%2- Ehtml
#4367 of 24693 syswei by ljflx Mar 09, 2004 (8:16 am)
A 1996 LS 400 is more problem free than a 2003 BMW 7-series. That is incredible but at the same time doesn't surpise me. The 1996 car also had plenty of advanced technology on it. It just shows you how well made Lexus cars are, particularly the LS. By the way CR is a BMW fan and in the past has said the 5-series is the best car they've ever driven. It's inevitable that euro sales will fall at the high price levels that exist today unless the quality comes back. In the past depreciation was exceptional for many Euro lux brand. But now it is average and even poor in some cases. The Japanese cars are starting to get the grades Euro cars used to get in depreciation and customer satisfaction. I'm not sure the Euro brands ever had the reliability levels that the Japanese have today. But long-term - falling car depreciation makes the high upfront payment for a new car unsupportable - particularyly given the leasing nature of the most expensive cars.
#4368 of 24693 ljflx by syswei Mar 09, 2004 (9:54 am)
I was surprised when I learned that back in 1990, MB led the JDP quality surveys. (Well, I didn't buy my first car until 1992, so maybe I'm excused for my ignorance.) So in a relative sense the Europeans, or some of them, did lead in quality. In an absolute sense (number of defects per 100) I think they never achieved current Japanese quality numbers...after all, all or almost all car companies have shown long-term improvements in problems per 100. That the Europeans now slightly trail the Americans in this metric is more due to improvements (or improvements at a faster rate) by the Americans.
#4369 of 24693 syswei by ljflx Mar 09, 2004 (10:13 am)
I meant quality from a relative standpoint not an absolute standpoint. I don't think the Europeans as a whole ever dominated the top reliability spot the way the Japanes (as a whole) do. I'm pretty sure that in the past MB would have gotten the type of quality ratings (relative to the industry in the past not the problem occurence of today) that Lexus now gets. With all that said it is nice to see the improvement in the American cars.
#4370 of 24693 ljflx by syswei Mar 09, 2004 (10:45 am)
We often hear from fans of German cars that Lexus "rides like a Buick". Well, maybe the refrain should be that "MB has worse reliability than a Buick". CR puts Buick as above-average in reliability for new cars, 3-year-old cars, and 5-year old cars, and MB as worse than average in all 3 categories. problems per 100 MB Buick 2003s 22 13 2001s 79 48 1999s 87 72
#4371 of 24693 by sv7887 Mar 09, 2004 (11:31 am)
Hi All, I hope this isn't the beginning of another Lexus vs MB debate..The BMW statistic doesn't surprise me. The 1996 LS was alot less complicated than the current 7 series. Obviously the more complicated the system the more issues that can arise with it. From my own personal experience, my 92 LS has had fewer issues than my LS430. Of course the cars differ greatly in complexity. Anyone want to postulate reasons for the European issues? (I'm NOT trying to start another Lex vs Germany thread here..) My feelings are that the autos are heavily concentrating on cramming electronics into these cars at a torrid pace. That works to the Japanese competitive advantage, as they are the unrivaled leader in this sort of thing. I think the main issues for the Euro automakers are electronics related. I somehow doubt I'd see a BMW, MB, or Jag with Engine or transmission issues.. Your thoughts? SV
#4372 of 24693 sv7887 by ljflx Mar 09, 2004 (12:49 pm)
The problem is that the 7-series didn't need to be all that more complex than the 96 LS400. BMW went there because of a desire to lead in electronic auto technology. The real issue is whether the Germans will let the Japanese lead here because they are no match for the Japanese in electronics. My bet is that pride will not allow it and the quality slide will continue. No - I don't want another Lexus vs MB debate either. We've been down that road a few too many times. But 10 - 15 years ago would anyone have ever thought the ratings would look like this for the Germans?