High End Luxury Cars

24697 messages, Last post on Nov 28, 2009 at 3:09 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Outline

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#4358 of 24697 Thank you Shipo, my thoughts exactly! by vcheng Mar 06, 2004 (7:22 pm)
You said it all, more eloquently than I could've myself.
#4359 of 24697 Davieboy by ksurg Mar 07, 2004 (10:02 am)
Hands down you will get a better lease deal on the 745i. Why? Mostly because the relatively low residual on the A8L as compared to the 745i. Other factors to consider include a more comprehensive scheduled maintenance program on the BMW and higher insurance premiums on the Audi( due to its aluminum construction). Intellichoice rates the 745i as excellent and the A8l as average in terms of cost and reliability. Even Edmunds has the A8L as having a higher true cost of ownership. From an option standpoint the BMW doesn't have four wheel drive but the A8 is not yet available in a SWB model. Lastly its hard to talk about reliability and get trustworthy info, especially since the A8L is so new. My personal experience having owned an A6 4.2 and 540i was that the Audi had far more problems but most of them were not serious and were fixed promptly by the dealership. I recently was in your position and went with the 745i because the deals were to good to pass up. So far I love the car. The whole quirky idrive thing is beyond me... everything seems intelligently if not intuitively designed despite what you read on this page( keep in mind that idrive before '04 may have been a different animal). IMO MMI is no different. Good luck with whatever you decide they're both great cars!
#4360 of 24697 Thanks Shipo by footie Mar 07, 2004 (1:18 pm)
I was just curious as to why folks enjoyed the manual tranny's. We just added an Element to the family for the teens and as a 'workmobile'. We got the front wheel drive, 5 speed manual combination. I got it that way because I couldn't get an inexpensive vehicle with the multi-functionality like an Element that also had TRAC and VSC (yet). So I prefer the freedom that the manual gives me in inclement weather. If it had TRAC/VSC to go along with the ABS/EBD, I would have bought a AWD/Automatic in a blink. Cars with TRAC/VSC/EBD/ABS, etc. flat out drive everyone but a very good professional driver. The Porsche Cayenne / VW Toureg being a very good example. Must be one of those 'eye of the beholder' things.
#4361 of 24697 Manual Tranny "Eye of the Beholder?" by lexus0622 Mar 07, 2004 (6:31 pm)
footie: Only one question -- how old are you? Forget that one. If you have ever driven an old (old by today's date, but current day at the time of driving) Fiat, BMW, Aston Martin, even VW Bug, you would know the difference a left foot clutch guiding/right hand gear shifting/body tensioning/total control feeling experience makes. It's a total body experience that has no equal in today's electronic push button/flip switch controls. I, for one, have come to accept the change. But I surely miss the subtle physical choices a true manual transmission permits. They are just not the same. Any other thoughts??
#4362 of 24697 designman by merc1 Mar 07, 2004 (9:32 pm)
Well with the new 5, I've had some time to actually see it on the roads in more real world surroundings. Now I must be clear, only the models with the bigger wheels and tires are "actually attractive" imo. The folks who buy the 525i and 530i with the standard wheels are still getting a car I can't whole heartedly endorse as being good looking, none of the 5-Series models are for that matter. However I kinda see what Bangle was going for with the 5-Series, I can't explain it, but I'd say he did a much better job on the 5 than he did the 7. Trust me it still isn't an E-Class or A6 (previous model) to me..so I wouldn't say I'd done quite a 180 degree turn, but it does look at lot better than the 7-Series. As always I enjoy your analysis on styling, the reason I asked your opinion of the CLS in the first place. Ah...the CLS, another car I'm starting like more and more, though it is about as far away from traditional MB design as possible. Your comments about its shape, lines and treatments are spot on, imo. I personally would have liked a blocky or more squarish back end like the S on the CLS. I agree about the interior, though my problem is more or less they used too many E-Class pieces, this car should have been completely different and daring, like the exterior is, for a MB that is. ____________ The transmission debate. No automatic or SMG, F1, or DSG type tranny will take the place of a true 3-pedal, lever operated manual for the purest of enthusiasts. No question. That said, my vote for the next best thing is Audi's DSG gearbox. The transmission is different from the rest of the automated manuals out there right now. Unlike the SMG/F1 type trannnies offered by BMW, Ferrari, Aston-Martin, Mercedes, Toyota, and Maserati, the Audi DSG unit functions pretty well in automatic mode, which truth be told is how most of these trannies will be operated most of the time, otherwise the person would have bought the traditional manual in the first place. The Audi system uses dual clutches and doesn't give that jerky, hesitation of all the other auto/manuals. Test drive the Audi TT 3.2 if you don't believe me. No it still doesn't shift as seamlessly as regular torque converter automatic, but its real close and much smoother than BMW's M3 SMG system is in automatic mode. Ferrari and Toyota MR2 owners complain the loudest about how awful there F1-style trannies behave in automatic mode while in stop-n-go traffic. I've hear similar stories about the Aston-Martin Vanquish and Maserati Sypder too. Which is why I'm shocked that Maserati would see a luxury sedan, the Quattroporte with essentially the same (with some changes) gearbox. A regular automatic with manual shifting capability isn't even close to comparing to a true manual when it comes to feeling in control of or being at one with the car. M
#4363 of 24697 Something Totally Different by merc1 Mar 08, 2004 (12:09 am)
There was a recent Automobile magazine article that stated "there is an old joke that says BMW's marketing is determined in Stuttgart", meaning that BMW's product lineup is influenced by Mercedes-Benz. For what MB does, BMW must answer in most cases, but vice versa also applies, but most of the time MB does the leading. Car and Driver has also stated that these two companies have more effect on each other than their competition does. This was stated most recently in their comparison of the CLK55 AMG and M3 a while back. Autospies recently published photos from the Detroit show showing BMW head designer, Chris Bangle and some other top BMW execs inspecting the Mercedes GST concept crossover. It is reported that BMW now has at the very least has a plan on the drawing board to develop a GST like vehicle. So far the rumor mill has them pegged as the V-Series: V3, V5 and possibly a V7..you know to mirror the X3, X5 and the once proposed X7. Now Automotive News is showing BMW CEO Helmut Panke in the front seat of the CLS 500, while BMW production Chief Burkhard Göschel "looks on" at the Geneva motor show. Now of course BMW has influenced Mercedes to try and go sportier, especially with the C-Class. The C-Class for 2005 gets another round of chassis improvements in keeping with this belief of BMW's influence. Will Mercedes go for an idrive like system in the 2006 S-Class? Will BMW build a 4-door Coupe-like vehicle if the CLS is a hit? Interesting stuff. M
#4364 of 24697 Cien by designman Mar 09, 2004 (5:15 am)
Merc1, I’d be interested to hear what you (or anyone else) think of the Cadillac concept cars. I’m really hot on Cien. This one has the styling that has been brought home, finished up and nailed down the way I expect—the swagger and forward-thinking that only comes from Lamborghini. CTS had the idea, but Cien has the details. It’s a perfect study in assymetry... complex, striking proportions yet extremely balanced. I particularly like the harmony among flat and curved surfaces. If Cien ever makes it to the street, I would seriously consider it based on style alone. Any brains, performance and reliability that comes with it would only be icing on the cake. Too much to ask for? I suppose so. But this is not your father’s Cadillac, and it’s no Allante. I really hope they can make a go of it and shed that stigma. There’s a lot of inertia to overcome and I don’t think XLR is going to help the cause. But in any event, Cadillac is indeed providing some interest and worth watching. I know they take a beating in the minds of foreign-car buyers, but I try not to curse the darkness.
#4365 of 24697 Consumer reports by ljflx Mar 09, 2004 (7:49 am)
Japanese continue to dominate the CR best lists and reliability (if you read the magazine article) seems to be higher than ever while European reliability seems to be worse than ever. One thing of interest is that they thought the S-class ride was actually a tad bit better and more sullen than the LS430 which is the exact opposite of what I have found in the past. This however is the ultimate battle as both cars have phenomenal ride quality. It's clear that CR considers the S and LS the best mass production cars on the planet but the S loses out because of poor reliability. The other thing is that the S is only average in customer satisfaction which must be tied to a combination of its poor reliability and high anticipations of the buyer. The LS scored highest marks possible in all categories including depreciation. 7 series was considered to miss the mark as a luxury sedan (my take is because of the difficulty with iDrive and performing ordinary tasks whilee driving) and scored awful in reliabilty and average in satisfaction and depreciation. It was considered very quiet but lacking a great ride. The A8 is too new to be rated (as was the Phaeton) but its clear CR was quite impressed with it. The Jag was considered a classic car but its ride, interior comfort and quietness trailed the S and LS. The Q scored high in reliabilty but misses the mark as a world class car. The Passat tied in a top category as it had average reliabilty. The Passat commercial with the woman test driving a car and passing an unmarked state trooper is one of the best auto ads I've seen recently. The look on the troopers face as he's passed, the auto salesman's face when he realizes what just happened and the excitement on the woman's face as she looks at the auto saleman for approval to pass beforehand all desreve Clio awards. http://money.cnn.com/2004/03/08/pf/autos/CR_best_cars/index.htm?c- - - nn=yes
#4366 of 24697 WSJ's take on CR by syswei Mar 09, 2004 (7:58 am)
http://online.wsj.com/wsjgate?subURI=%2Farticle%2F0%2C%2CSB107878- 359727249579%2Demail%2C00%2Ehtml&nonsubURI=%2Farticle%5Femail- %2F0%2C%2CSB107878359727249579%2DIhjgYNllal3npuobYCGaq6Hm5%2C00%2- Ehtml
#4367 of 24697 syswei by ljflx Mar 09, 2004 (8:16 am)
A 1996 LS 400 is more problem free than a 2003 BMW 7-series. That is incredible but at the same time doesn't surpise me. The 1996 car also had plenty of advanced technology on it. It just shows you how well made Lexus cars are, particularly the LS. By the way CR is a BMW fan and in the past has said the 5-series is the best car they've ever driven. It's inevitable that euro sales will fall at the high price levels that exist today unless the quality comes back. In the past depreciation was exceptional for many Euro lux brand. But now it is average and even poor in some cases. The Japanese cars are starting to get the grades Euro cars used to get in depreciation and customer satisfaction. I'm not sure the Euro brands ever had the reliability levels that the Japanese have today. But long-term - falling car depreciation makes the high upfront payment for a new car unsupportable - particularyly given the leasing nature of the most expensive cars.