Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
Feb 24, 2004 (9:32 pm)
Actually drive by wire isn't new. BMW debuted this technology on the 1988 750iL and Cadillac on the 1990 Allante. Needless to say this was a long time ago. There have been no complaints or problems with this type of technology since the very beginning. Even Honda uses it on several cars that cost much less than most Lexus, Mercedes or BMW models.
Brake by wire has proven in certain applications to dramatically shorten stopping distances. Before adopting this technology, Mercedes' never won out over BMW in braking distances, the downside is that the pedal feel is not right for some, and yes there will be some failures and/or glitches to go with this new technology.
Both of these systems, of course have back up systems, though I don't know a single case of drive by wire failing.
We'll see about all that. I seriously doubt Lexus will do the type of car needed to outdo an E55 or M5; it would need 500hp to do this. To get a Hybrid to do this would be an expensive and arduous task indeed. A mere 400hp won't get it anymore if you're trying to out-do these cars.
The new GS isn't vanilla, you're right...my own personal opinion is that it's ungainly and just a poor design.
You like the CLS! Surprising. Well I guess not since I don't like it, it would appeal to a Lexus person...lol.
Feb 25, 2004 (3:44 am)
I was driven around in the new 7 series today. I have never been a fan of the exterior (I must say all new BMWs have been extremely clumsily executed design wise, and don't do the cars' dynamic excellence justice), but I was surprised that the interior didn't do much for me, either. I thought I'd like the avant-garde clean interior, but the lack of a shifter and such renders the interior somewhat... soccer mom van like, really. Materials excellent, but something's missing. The 5 series is also very underwhelming when seen live. Looks Acura-like. Not that Acuras aren't extremely competent cars, this is just to point out the proportiones simply aren't as *right* as BMWs of the past always had. The look is gettig more bloated, as if all their products were becoming middle-aged.
Then I saw a Maybach driving back home for work, and again I think the car terribly designed. It looks like an Oldsmobile supercar or something, those back lights are inexcusable.
And then I saw a Bentley Arnage, and voila, instant luxury look. Big barge, but immense presence, and it combines dynamics with elegance. What a classic, it'll be sorely missed.
Feb 25, 2004 (4:27 am)
Where does the CLE fit in? Won't MB have too many sedans? My guess is it shares platform with E.
I agree with merc. It was a nice try by Lexus, but two cars debuting about same time as GS will have nicer bodies, A6 & M. From photos, GS just doesn't have the clean lines of those cars.
#4236 of 24726 pablo_l
Feb 25, 2004 (4:45 am)
I share your thoughts; thankfully the Arnage has at least a few more years to go.
What you were missing in the BMW was that cockpit feel that BMW used to provide. They've all but abandoned that concept. The 3-Series is next.
The CLS (CLE was just the concept name, though I like "CLE" better) is supposed to be a 4-door Coupe, and yes it is based on the E-Class platform. Mercedes seems to deem whatever bodystyle they want to be a "Coupe". First the hatchback C230 is a Coupe, now the 4-door CLS is a "Coupe" also. Only at Mercedes-Benz.
The CLS350 (all new 3.5L V6 268hp) and CLS500 (5.0L V8 302hp) will be priced between the E and S-Class sedans. Both will have the new 7-speed tranny also. Expect some type of AMG version in a year or so.
Britain's CAR magazine (you guys have got to pick up a copy this magazine, it puts the US mags to shame) said that BMW and Audi wishes they could position a car in their ranges like MB has done with the CLS, we'll see if that pans out. Again, I personally wanted a true 2-door coupe based on the E-Class, but there hasn't been one since 1995, and what a car that was, btw.
I had several issues with CLS. I say had because one of them was not and issue as it turns out. I'm pretty much cool with the CLS as long as IT IS NOT the styling direction of other future Mercedes-Benzes. That fear *seems* to be unfounded. The next S won't look like the CLS. My other issue is that while they did make the interior a little different, they didn't go far enough. I'm not sure what all colors and woods will be offered on the CLS, but they should be from the Designo group and they should be standard order items on this car (none of that extra charge stuff), you know make is different and special. Secondly I would have liked to have seen a different interior design, not just and updated E-Class interior.
I still don't know about this car. I guess I'll have to see it in person. Too bad the concept wasn't at Detroit.
Feb 25, 2004 (6:58 am)
As a guy who loves Lexus, you can count me as another one who really thinks the CLS looks fantastic.
#4239 of 24726 mainer7
Feb 25, 2004 (1:16 pm)
"...and then replies with the CLS, which the opposition has no answer for."
Hmmmm, ever hear of the new (as in soon to be released) 6-Series BMW?
Feb 25, 2004 (6:06 pm)
What exactly is it that the CLS does that other 4 doors don't? The whole marketing shtick around a 4 door coupe is crap: it has 4 doors, it looks like a sedan, it is a sedan. It just offers the S and E class benefits with a different, swoopier design, and that's that. The only thing they're doing is checking whether the luxury sedan market supports 3 different product lines, as opposed to the traditional 2 that everybody has settled for. But it's like Saab calling their wagon a sports-hatch. I mean, come on. Let's not be suckers for marketing labels...
You want to see what a real 4 door coupe looks like, check out the Mazda RX. The Merc CLS has *ntohing* in comon with it, and everything in common with the usual sedan proportions.
#4241 of 24726 lenscap
Feb 26, 2004 (1:39 am)
So noted. I'm having a problem with the side view of the production car vs. the concept. It didn't quite hold up.
Actually Mercedes is going back to DOHC engine design, not just joining any bandwagon. Their last group of DOHC engines was from 1989-1997.
I don't think of us are falling for any marketing labels, everyone clearly sees this is just a swoopier sedan, but that's what market presence does for MB, they and some others (Saab for example) can get away with it. Audi scrapped plans to do a 4-door coupe version of the A4 right before the CLS was announced. I can only imagine what that car would have looked like.
The 6-Series and CLS will occupy the same price space, but that's about it. The CLS won't hope to match the dynamics of the 6-Series and the 6 isn't going to match the rear-seat room/practicality/luxury of the CLS. Really Autoweek is right; there is nothing else quite like the CLS right now, well except for maybe the Maserati Quattroporte, another swoopy coupish-like (styling) sedan.
Feb 26, 2004 (6:51 am)
Ever heard of CL and CLK? Those are 6 series competitors.