Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
Feb 17, 2004 (4:31 pm)
I can understand your pain as you've not had a taste of the Lexus experience. (Come to the dark side! LOL!) I've owned practically everything in the Luxury car segment with the exception of a BMW. Yes, these cars are REALLY that good. If you've owned three LS cars like I have, you'd probably say the same thing.
The 1992 LS in question was bought new. I've spent maybe $3,000 in all those scheduled maintenance issues (5K to 91K) services. The car has always started on the first turn of the key, and never has had any mechanical issues. I've been limited to replacement of a couple of light bulbs totaling $3. Ah, yes, I had the rear shocks replaced b/c the floaty Lexus ride was too much for me. Total cost $325 at a Lexus dealer. (That was an elective procedure).
The car was recently hit (Left Front Side) at 35 MPH by an idiot driver running a red light. Repairs totaled $7,500. So I can only attest to the first 11 years, as any data now will be skewed.
Keep in mind I am the original owner of my 1992. Most of those cars you read about are on their third or fourth owner. Relevance? They probably are cutting corners on maintenance. (as is the case with most lux cars that age) I find it irritating people seem to think they can service these cars at Jiffy Lube or the local gas station..They then complain when something breaks due to lack of scheduled maintenance.
Lexus focuses on Preventative maintenance, so I can see why I've had such little issues with the car. Of course I've had brake pads replaced, but again nothing than the normal deal. I'm sure someone can provide the numbers and confirm my suspicion that a LS car will have lower down time and cheaper repair costs Long term.
I can understand your feelings. I've owned MB cars (1988 300 SE), a Jag XJ6, and a Lincoln in the past. I buy cars in cash and for the long term. Like most educated consumers out there I want the best experience for the money. It's what made me switch from MB. I didn't feel the product justified the price premium. It's a matter of opinion.
Good debating with you as always,
Feb 17, 2004 (5:06 pm)
I actually like the exterior better than current car. But I just don't like the Audi corporate grill.
#4170 of 24723 oooh, I really like the new A6
Feb 17, 2004 (5:49 pm)
Not sure either about the front grill however.
Feb 17, 2004 (7:33 pm)
The design, especially of the interior, looks a bit Japanese standard edition to me. Nowhere near enough of the usual Audi sharp elegance. The high grill is very clumsy, it makes the design look aged. The classic inverted U shape is not classic Audi, it's more classic NSU of the 1930s, which Audi acquired sometime in the early 70s.
Feb 17, 2004 (8:15 pm)
I seriously contemplated the Bentley..Contacted dealer, and really like the car..I like the design, and with past experience with a Jag, know the interior will be like no other.
Shortly ofter the above, I went to Miami, and the hotel attendants parked car,and other services. It is quite crowded there, and one really needs to know where one is going..I decided against this type (expensive) of car, as I would not be comfortable with the thought of it getting dinged or scraped..It is enough thought with the two year old Lexus(newness has warn off). If I had a garage, and used the car sparingly it would be a different story..Right now thankfully the winter is going to turn into spring, and the sap will cover the car..I am sure you will enjoy the Continental...Tony
#4173 of 24723 Ding Avoidance is Unavoidable
Feb 17, 2004 (8:37 pm)
Tony, I understand your concern. I had the same feeling about my 1992 LS400 the first day I had it out. Then I realized that I would never truly enjoy the car if "protecting it" was a lingering concern. So, after that first day (like bringing your 1st born into his/her new home) I cut those cords free and accepted that they would be dings and scratches. It's been great ever since -- dings and all!
#4174 of 24723 Change of subject
Feb 17, 2004 (11:02 pm)
I've been waffling a long time now on leasing or purchasing a new vehicle. Recently I decided on leasing a luxury vehicle, which ironically is where I started.
In re entering the leasing market it is clear that some of the standard price considerations don't apply especially if you plan on turning over the vehicle at lease end. For instance, a 745i can be leased cheaper than an A8L given the lower residual on the Audi despite the higher MSRP on the BMW. The same is true in comparing a XJ-8 vs. LS430.
Next is research will only get you so far. I'm not debating JD powers, intellichoice or our host Edmunds...but does everyone always agree on appearance or ease of operation? Several days ago I drove a 745i that was unprepped and not programmed. My impression was that it was indeed deep in complicated technology but for me the layout was intuitive and reasonably laid out. Maybe for those of us who own planes or boats certain types of technology are less daunting. Interestingly anyone who thinks auto technology and the landscape of the cockpit won't change will probably be disappointed. Someone recently commented that "rich businessmen won't buy a car that requires a teenager to drive." I don't know about anyone else but my teenagers are growing up quick. I recently saw a auto mag with "auto's of the future." The layout doesn't even resemble a present day car, in fact there was no obvious gearshift and no foot pedals! So much for easily accessible audio controls.
The point I'm getting to is that major changes in technology seem to meet a lot of resistance. BMW took a lot of heat for a vehicle that may turn out to be the link between the auto of today and tomorrow. If guilty, their mistake was releasing the technology before perfected and maybe before we were ready for it. The whole situation reminds me of other areas of technology where people focused on the downsides and resisted change. What office still functions efficiently without faxes, computers, DSL...
With the above said I am leaning towards the 745i but felt compelled to write this given the expectation the 7 series was poorly conceived and designed. For the record other vehicles driven included the S500, A8L, XJ-8 and the venerable LS430(seemingly this boards favorate...please let's not review the reliability issue again).
#4175 of 24723 lexus0622
Feb 17, 2004 (11:12 pm)
I forgot to mention someting in that post this morning. Instead of a Bentley Conti GT, what about an Aston-Martin DB9? It's a stunner, easily for me the best looking car making the rounds at this year's autoshows.
Point taken. Older luxury cars that haven't been maintained like yours are the ones that most people get I guess, because I see a lot more being done on early 90's LS' (second hand) than that. The Lexus "experience" just isn't for me...
That is the exact same thing I said on the A6 board in the future auto section. They're doing what BMW used to, cockpit wise.
Pablo......your comments on the interior are correct also. I expected something along the lines of the A8, but they've done a rather generic layout imo. The whole car has moved towards being generic, nothing like the A8 or A4.
#4176 of 24723 ksurg... BMW and technology
Feb 18, 2004 (6:43 am)
“The whole situation reminds me of other areas of technology where people focused on the downsides and resisted change. What office still functions efficiently without faxes, computers, DSL...”
This argument always surfaces and this is my answer.
Around 1984, it was clear to me that the world was going to be turned upside down by computers and those who didn’t accept it were going to be in for a rough ride. However this whole digital story is about PRODUCTIVITY... more for less. In 1984 It would take at least 12 people to do my work today. This we can’t stop. It’s manifest destiny.
The problem with bringing computers into cars is that it is counterproductive, unlike office computers. It takes more effort now to adjust what should be simple climate control and radio functions. What used to take one move now takes several. At least if it cut production costs for the auto makers you could make an argument but I doubt this is the case. It’s glitz and change for the sake of change, not progress.
I never cease to be amazed at how the ergonomics in my $24K Subaru are superior to that of my $48K BMW. In the Subaru it takes one move to change the heating direction while in the BMW it sometimes takes several. The BMW cockpit does look more impressive though and I suspect having an LCD screen light up the new cockpits will have the same effect. Technology and the APPEARANCE of technology has always been part of the BMW countenance even though owning a BMW has always been somewhat of a pain in the butt because of it.
Then there’s the BMW ride, so good that we just accept the shorcomings. BMW had better watch its step though. This current schism is like nothing we’ve ever seen before. What with the controversial styling there appears to be a limit to what the BMW “technophile” will put up with.