High End Luxury Cars

24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Outline

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#3988 of 24700 MB S500 vs. BMW 745Li vs. Lexus LS 430 by slicker_37219 Jan 26, 2004 (7:22 am)
Okay folks I have been a silent observer of these forums up until now, but I have to raise a question to the expert power posters here: I am in the market for a new/used high end luxury sedan. I thought I was sold on the MB S500, however after reading these forums I am a bit hesitant now. I originally thought I was going to get the BMW 745Li, but now the iDrive system and the horrible press that it has received has caused me some serious concerns related to the car's overall reliability. I am not a person who turns cars every 3 years. I like to buy one car(for cash, not lease) every 8-10 years. My biggest concerns in order are: 1.) reliability 2.) durability 3.) price 4.) ease of use 5.) aesthetics 6.) fun to drive I know it is hard to compare apples to apples with the MB S500 and the BMW 745Li vs. the Lexus 430 given the price difference but try to come up with some comparable data outside of price. I would also like to hear from prospective owners on dealerships that they found easy to work with, as well as those that offered competitive pricing.
#3989 of 24700 slicker by ljflx Jan 26, 2004 (7:46 am)
Actually it is pretty easy to compare the 7, S and LS430. They are different on price but if you load up the LS430 then you are within $2-3k of an S430 with minor options and $5-6k of an S430 normally optioned. From your priority list the LS430 is likely the car for you and the S-class is second. What you can't compare either a 7 series or the LS430 to is the over the top S55amg. But otherwise the cars are very comparable. MB dealers - seemed fine to me when I shopped in NJ in 2001 but I'd go with an exclusive MB dealer and not one that shares a location with other car models. I shopped at a combo MB/Honda (one building, two showrooms) dealership and an MB exclusive dealership and preferred the latter. Every Lexus dealership I've dealt with in the NY/NJ area pampered you and treated you like royalty. I can't say anything about MB - other than comment on sales since I didn't buy and never dealt with the service dept. At Lexus you always get an RX or ES as a loaner in my experience. At the MB exclusive dealership I would have gotten a C-class and at the combo guy I would have gotten a car from Enterprise. Lastly - I didn't feel MB or Lexus dealers exerted any pressure on the sale. It was always your choice and the dealers praised their cars and the cars of the competing brands. But I was shopping new, not pre-owned.
#3990 of 24700 slicker by motownusa Jan 26, 2004 (8:27 am)
No question about it. The Lexus is the one for you the way you described your priority. If I could afford any of these cars ( I can't) the LS430 would be my first choice.
#3991 of 24700 by sv7887 Jan 26, 2004 (8:53 am)
Slicker, Interesting post. I'd say the LS430 is the car for you. Like you, I pay Cash and don't buy often. I have a relatively trouble free 92 LS400 (Until Recently, long story) and purchased a 2002 LS430 in Sept of 2002. Both Lexus cars have been extremely reliable and never have left me stranded. The controls are easy to understand and properly placed. Operating the Navigation System doesn't require a Ph.D. I found the Lexus Console the most practically designed of the bunch. As for durability. The 92 LS has held up well. I've had minor issues with rattles due to some $0.10 screw missing, and a burnt out tail light at 11 years. That's about it. Of course ALL of these cars require you to follow the maintenance schedule. I've spent around $3,500 in my 12 years of ownership. I could have saved some money by sending the car to independent mechanics, but it's only seen Lexus dealers only. Where does the Lexus lose? Aesthetics and the fun to drive category. With the exception of the first LS, the latest Lexus offerings are quite bland in design. Every new LS design seems to really make the last model look very outdated. Holding on to my LS430 for 12 years like my LS400 probably won't be possible due to this. Their aesthetic designs age much faster than MB, due in part to their lack of originality..As for BMW, I think you've heard all the comments about the car being "Bangled." As for "Fun to Drive" the Germans have the edge. The LS430 is very comfortable to drive, and has great straight line acceleration numbers, but the German cars are far more responsive and nimble. Finally, as for Dealers, I've always found the Lexus dealers (MA) a pleasure to work with. They've handled the extensive post accident repairs on my 1992 LS very well. The Loaner cars are always new, and the sales/service staff very professional. Everything is top notch. My opinion is that the German cars offer a little more spice, but overall the Lexus Ownership experience cannot be beat. Hope this helps, SV
#3992 of 24700 slicker by syswei Jan 26, 2004 (10:09 am)
I agree with the others, the LS wins your first 4 priorities, as I think even MB and BMW fans would admit.
#3993 of 24700 A couple other additional bits of information... by slicker_37219 Jan 26, 2004 (11:49 am)
I guess my age and a couple other details might help the ongoing recommendations. By the way, thanks for all your great posts. I appreciate hearing your candid feedback. I am 31, married with 2 kids. This is why I am looking at a full size sedan. One other thing I have heard is that Lexus cars in general are referred to as a "poor man's Mercedes". Obviously everyone is going to have their own personal bias, but just wanted to verify that this specific perception is as real where I live as it is in your neck of the woods. (I don't think this point will play a huge factor in my decision, but for some reason this bias keeps coming up). As an aside, I have test driven the BMW 745Li, but I haven't yet test driven the MB S500 or the Lexus LS430. Sounds by most of the posts so far that I should call my Lexus dealer first before I pick up the phone to my MB dealer.
#3994 of 24700 The poor man's Mercedes by ljflx Jan 26, 2004 (12:50 pm)
Everyone I know that has an LS430 can afford an S-600 if they wanted. Some MB lover somewhere started that rumor. There are also MB S500's and SL's in my area that sit on driveways of homes that are half the price of mine. To each his own on how people spend their money.
#3995 of 24700 Slicker by sysadb Jan 26, 2004 (1:54 pm)
You might want to look at the Q45 also, as it meets your most important criteria. ljflx, you are correct about the original LS400 being priced "al-a-carte". The 90 model had a base price of $35k, and options such as leather and sunroof were optional. You won't find too many of these cloth-seat examples around, though... DB
#3996 of 24700 sysadb by ljflx Jan 26, 2004 (2:43 pm)
I know. Even in 95 when I took my first LS400 the sunroof and other goodies were still optional. I never saw an LS400 without a sunroof and I never saw one with cloth seats in the pre 95 era. They really should just make the premium edition be the base car and put the right starting MSRP.
#3997 of 24700 lenscap - Market Update Links & Info by jamesfletcher2 Jan 26, 2004 (5:33 pm)
I subscribe to Automotive News and after reading your post I looked at this weeks Auto News issue on the Web. Here are some public links and info extracted from my subscription issue that were provided. The public links from AutoWeek (the Automotive News sister publication) have almost the exact language as the commensurate article in Automotive News. 1. Here is some of the key information from the 2007 Lexus article you mention - "How high is high enough? How big is too big?" "Those are the questions facing Lexus Division, which won the best-selling luxury brand title for the fourth straight year in 2003." "But Denny Clements, Lexus general manager, says the brand has fallen into a predictable rhythm - and he wants to change that." "We launch a car, then have a minor change after three years, and then a redesign two years after that," Clements said during an interview at the Detroit auto show." "Meanwhile, the Europeans have new product news and variations coming every year, and they're always on magazine covers. Lexus needs to be like that. Lexus needs to have something always going on. It needs to have that buzz." "Clements said Lexus and parent Toyota Motor Corp. have set this stir-things-up agenda for the next few years: - A new distinct design specific to Lexus, to be seen first in the 2005 GS 430 and evolving from there. (Note: the article says a MY05 GS not MY06 which makes more sense like merc1 said a few days ago.) - A redesign of each car line by spring 2007. - All-wheel drive availability with the redesigns. - The addition of a flagship above the LS 430. - The creation of a factory performance division, akin to Mercedes-Benz's AMG." "After spending the last several years bulking up in SUVs, Lexus is returning to its core strength: luxury cars. The next-generation GS 430 and GS 300 sport sedans, which will arrive in early 2005, will be followed by the replacements for the IS 300, ES 330 and LS 430, all arriving by spring 2007." Very interesting, IMO. 2. Here is the Acura RL article on the AutoWeek Web site on the new RL - http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- - - - - _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=01990871 3. Here is a link from AutoWeek (the Automotive News sister pub) on the ultra-luxury Cadillac that I believe we have basically seen before - http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=00165382 4. ON the Cadillac SUV engine initial statement from the article it goes on the say - "The move is in keeping with General Motors' plans to create a series of exclusive high-performance cars and SUVs for Cadillac called the V Series. The first of those models, the CTS-V sports sedan, is in showrooms. The CTS-V is powered by a V-8 derived from the engine used in the Chevrolet Corvette." "You will find Cadillacs running around with higher-output V-8s, running around with V-10s (and) V-12s," Stephens says, "and you will find even one variant with even more cylinders." Let me know if you want more info and I will e-mail it to you. Jim