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High End Luxury Cars

24697 messages,  Last post on Nov 28, 2009 at 3:09 PM

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What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

#3980 of 24697 ljflx, shipo by designman Jan 23, 2004 (10:30 am)
ljflx, “The minivan will fit into their "ultimate driving machime" culture the moment MB and Lexus make it start to be a hit. Ultimately the cash book is the determining factor of everything. Is there any other reason why BMW and then Porsche built suv's.” Good point. But don’t hold your breath with BMW and minivans—it ain’t happening in the near future.   Shipo, with regard to power “Can you ever really have enough?” I hear you… good question. As a matter of fact it would make an excellent thread. I will answer it this way. I know power provides a lot of "utility" within the realm of legal speed limits such as passing etc., but I also parse it another way. I guess if I ever see flashing lights in my rear-view mirror in the heat of a passionate moment, indeed, I will have had enough!
#3981 of 24697 shipo by merc1 Jan 24, 2004 (1:08 pm)
Yep it's true, he didn't pen the 6-Series, but he still had to sign off on it I'm sure. His previous work on the 7 and 5 probably influenced the guy who did the 6 (obviously). I'll have to find the article with the name of the 6-Series' designer.   designman,   Well I haven't driven the current generation M3 (though I was "this" close to doing so), but from all I've read, its the ultimate in sport and it never lets you forget it. The next M5 is going to inhale the entire segment, including the ridiculously fast E55 AMG. A V10 sounds so good to me, but the car's styling is likely to be a sticking point for most buyers. I don't think it will cost over 100K, but I'd bet on 90K with that engine and drivetrain, it's basically race car material/spec. Mercedes will no doubt tweak the E55 (could drop the SLR's engine in, its the same engine basically) and there will be a new Audi RS6 for 2006 or so.   ljflx,   When you get the chance take a look at the G35's interior, specificallly the Coupe, it is no where near being worthy of the exterior and performance this car has. Now a re-do is rumored for 2005 delaying things further. Japanese/German cars: I've always had a soft spot for Acura in particular, but the exterior of the TL is just too much of a compromise, and the G35 Coupe is the only other Japanese car in this segment that I truly like, but it's interior is an issue. I got it! Give the G35 an Acura quality interior, problem solved! The German brands are my favorites, but in my price range I'm not crazy about the C230 Sedan (interior and engine) and I don't want a 3-Series, so only the A4 qualifies. Finally they've painted the entire bottom of the A4! Now if I were shopping at the E/5/A6 level or higher nothing from Japan would even be considered.   I agree, stylewise the Phantom does beat the Maybach, but I'm not crazy out the old-style interior of the Rolls, though it is of the highest quality. With the Rolls you simply know what it is from the minute you see one, the Maybach looks too much like S-Class ran into a Lincoln. It's not an ugly car, just not 300K+ distinctive.   M
#3983 of 24697 Coming to America by bwia Jan 25, 2004 (5:20 am)
I read somewhere that the Bugatti Veyron will make its US debut in April.   The Veyron is priced at $1.2 million, has a top speed of 256 mph and can go from 0-60 in 2.9 seconds. This rocket is powered by a 1001 horsepower W-16 engine. This is what I call the ultimate luxury sports car and the grandest display of conspicuous consumption.   Merc1 was the Veyron displayed at the Detroit auto show? And speaking of the Detroit show, Autoweek,(?) the PBS TV auto show, will devote next week’s program to the Detroit Auto show.   Enjoy!
#3984 of 24697 Phaeton by ljflx Jan 25, 2004 (7:15 am)
Merc1 - I don't know if this car makes it or not. It's reviewed pretty in-depth in todays NY Times and while the review isn't bad, it isn't overly impressive either. Overall it seems like a good car but VW missed on some basic non-automootive conveniences like cup holders, the CD player and the nav system pretty badly per the reviewer. MB can blow these things (not that they do) and still hit a homer because of their image and well established brand. VW can't. It seems that leases for this car are already heavily subsidized by VW and can be gotten at $697 per month in some areas. I know people who wish they could get $8-10k cheaper LS 430's and E-500's at that price. Heck I bet your hard pressed to get an E-320 at that price. I know my $51K GX is more expensive than that as well.
#3985 of 24697 bwia by merc1 Jan 25, 2004 (9:37 pm)
Nope, no Bugatti or Lotus. VW has found a money pit with that car, it's overbudget and way behind schedule. The car's outrageous engine and 7-speed SMG/F1 transmission are rumored to be the problem.   ljflx,   Well I've come to the like the Phaeton a good little bit, but I didn't know that massive center console didn't contain a CD player, and I didn't realize that on the A8 either until a few weeks ago. Same thing with Mercedes' CLK and C-Class, still no in-dash CD, stubborness.   I think VW should import a short wheelbase Phaeton and price it around 55K, right on top of the E500/545i/A6 4.2 etc, and keep the lwb model where it is. The car does offer value. I priced one at vw.com and came up with 76K for everything I would want in such a car, way below the S430 4Matic, 745Li, but right about even with a A8L, which begs the question "why" compared to the A8. The 7-Series, LS, and XJ don't have awd, the do-it-all S-Class does, but at a much higher price. The Phaeton W12 is a relative bargain compared the S600 and 760Li, but I predict they'll be precious few buyers at this level (95K) for a VW.   Dare I say it, but VW is taking the 1990 Lexus LS400 route of underpricing the car to get some market share. If the car is a hit I doubt those leases will remain that cheap, but you're the leasing expert, not me.   The dealership experience and VW's reliability are the flies in the buttermilk.    Audi's dealerships are brand new in Chicago, all except one on the near north side of Chicago (Fletcher Jones), VW's by comparison mostly suck big time, but some that carry the Phaeton are new and/or remodeled. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there isn't a compelling reason to pick this car over the Audi if you're a VW/Audi fan. There there are the LS430 and Jaguar XJ8, which cost less in most cases.   Overall I'm pulling for the car and await the sales numbers each month. BTW, there is a pretty good discussion about the Phaeton on the Phaeton board, complete with a VW represenative.   M
#3986 of 24697 merc1 by ljflx Jan 26, 2004 (6:20 am)
The difference between the Lexus approach and the VW approach is that Lexus allowed the car to be as cheap as $35-36k and you could add your options. But they wouldn't let the car cross around a $42k MSRP (I'm doing this from memory so I may be a bit off vs, actual prices back then) Most of the initial LS400's went in the 38-40k range which was a great bargain. Then of course they pushed the prices up once the car was successful. They never discounted heavily off sticker to get the car moving. This is like budgeting. Better to pick the number you can make and meet or overachieve it rather than put it up high and come down with each quarterly estimate. Of course you have to be realistic about that number you can make. In the lux arena the tendency is to think that something is really wrong when you see something too heavily discounted. Remember - at this stage the perception that something is wrong to a buyer can easily be more important than the reality that the Phaeton is or may be a great car.
#3987 of 24697 Market Update by lenscap Jan 26, 2004 (7:10 am)
There are several good articles in this week's edition of Automotive News. However, since I get an online version via a database I only have the headlines and will not have access to the articles until later this week. Perhaps somebody here has read these stories and can fill us in:   1. Boss puts 'buzz' on U.S. luxury leader's to-do list. Lexus will redesign car line by 2007, add performance unit. How high is high enough? How big is too big? Those are the questions facing Lexus Division, which won the best-selling luxury brand title for the fourth straight year in 2003.   2. Acura plays catch-up with awd, 300hp. Acura this fall will equip its flagship RL sedan with all-wheel drive and a 300-hp V-6 engine to challenge luxury rivals who offer rear-drive and V-8s, dealers and analysts say. A hybrid gasoline-electric powertrain also could be part of the package.   3. Cadillac will build ultraluxury sedan. Cadillac has confirmed it will build an ultraluxury sedan, but don't expect to see the car until late in the decade.   4. Escalade to get bigger engine. Cadillac extends high-performance 'V' strategy to big SUV. The Cadillac Escalade luxury SUV will muscle into the fast lane with a V-10 or V-12 engine, possible as early as the 2006 model year.
#3988 of 24697 MB S500 vs. BMW 745Li vs. Lexus LS 430 by slicker_37219 Jan 26, 2004 (7:22 am)
Okay folks I have been a silent observer of these forums up until now, but I have to raise a question to the expert power posters here:   I am in the market for a new/used high end luxury sedan.   I thought I was sold on the MB S500, however after reading these forums I am a bit hesitant now.   I originally thought I was going to get the BMW 745Li, but now the iDrive system and the horrible press that it has received has caused me some serious concerns related to the car's overall reliability.   I am not a person who turns cars every 3 years. I like to buy one car(for cash, not lease) every 8-10 years.   My biggest concerns in order are: 1.) reliability 2.) durability 3.) price 4.) ease of use 5.) aesthetics 6.) fun to drive   I know it is hard to compare apples to apples with the MB S500 and the BMW 745Li vs. the Lexus 430 given the price difference but try to come up with some comparable data outside of price.   I would also like to hear from prospective owners on dealerships that they found easy to work with, as well as those that offered competitive pricing.
#3989 of 24697 slicker by ljflx Jan 26, 2004 (7:46 am)
Actually it is pretty easy to compare the 7, S and LS430. They are different on price but if you load up the LS430 then you are within $2-3k of an S430 with minor options and $5-6k of an S430 normally optioned. From your priority list the LS430 is likely the car for you and the S-class is second. What you can't compare either a 7 series or the LS430 to is the over the top S55amg. But otherwise the cars are very comparable.   MB dealers - seemed fine to me when I shopped in NJ in 2001 but I'd go with an exclusive MB dealer and not one that shares a location with other car models. I shopped at a combo MB/Honda (one building, two showrooms) dealership and an MB exclusive dealership and preferred the latter. Every Lexus dealership I've dealt with in the NY/NJ area pampered you and treated you like royalty. I can't say anything about MB - other than comment on sales since I didn't buy and never dealt with the service dept. At Lexus you always get an RX or ES as a loaner in my experience. At the MB exclusive dealership I would have gotten a C-class and at the combo guy I would have gotten a car from Enterprise. Lastly - I didn't feel MB or Lexus dealers exerted any pressure on the sale. It was always your choice and the dealers praised their cars and the cars of the competing brands. But I was shopping new, not pre-owned.

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