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High End Luxury Cars

24685 messages,  Last post on Nov 02, 2009 at 4:40 PM

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What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

#3977 of 24685 ljflx, merc1... more on BMW by designman Jan 23, 2004 (5:08 am)
ljflx, "Also is BMW going anywhere in the GST/HPX segment or ignoring it altogether. God only knows what a Bangle designed minivan would look like." I recall reading that BMW has no plans for a minivan. Their rationale is that it does not fit into the ultimate-driving-machine scheme of things. Curious how the SUV does. I love the marketing spin. They call their clientele knowledgeable technophiles, yet treat them like simpletons when dishing out the BS.   merc1, you alluded to the M3 yesterday. I test drove an 03 M3 convertible with SMG last month in search for a third-car toy. It was appealing since my wife was interested in the 330cic and doesn’t like the manual tranny. Figured I could kill two birds—she’d get her 3, I’d get a rocket. Bottom line is that I didn’t care for the SMG. In both auto and manual modes the gear transitions were jolting, as if some car hit you in the rear with every shift. Also those 18-inch low-profile tires on top of that suspension are murder on NY metro roads—extremely rough ride. Handsome car though. 04 is the last opportunity for “old-world” 3-lovers... get ‘em while you can.   I can’t wait to see what the next M5 will do for enthusiasts besides raising more ire. They’d better have 6-speed and an improved SMG. I hear the 04 SMG is improved, but if they forsake the conventional 6-speed, just add it to the list of complaints and watch the sales drop, especially with a hefty price increase. With a V-10, this baby has to be at or over $100K. This new age of power will be very interesting. I’d like to know what enthusiasts are going to do with all of this muscle besides feeding their egos and swilling martinis as they admire their garage queens. I don't think BMW could give a rat's butt about M5 though. It seems platform diversity is at the core of their marketing strategy, and I believe each model will suffer at the expense of such strategy as attention per model becomes diluted.
#3978 of 24685 Designman by shipo Jan 23, 2004 (5:20 am)
I too have wondered just how much sillier this horsepower race it going to get. I am currently driving an E39 530i with a 5-Speed, and while I would have liked a little more power every now and then, I don't think I have ever really needed any more power. Now I have fallen in love with the E63 6-Series in 645Ci guise with a 6-Speed (three pedal variety). Assuming that I do in fact find a 645Ci in my garage in another year or so, I suspect that I will probably still occasionally want some more power. Ditto if I ever pop for an "M" car. Can you ever really have enough?   Best Regards, Shipo
#3979 of 24685 designman by ljflx Jan 23, 2004 (8:43 am)
The minivan will fit into their "ultimate driving machime" culture the moment MB and Lexus make it start to be a hit. Ultimately the cash book is the determining factor of everything. Is there any other reason why BMW and then Porsche built suv's.   merc1 - agree on the GS comment re the HPX. That is where Lexus missed it in my opinion. Also - I think the G35 is a great looking car but I have never paid attention to its interior. It would be funny though to see you in another Japanese car given your German automobile patronage. But I guess the G35 could easily have been a German car.   I have now seen both the the Maybach and Rolls on the road and have concluded the Rolls puts the Maybach away. But I would expect Darth Vader - when he was a bad guy - to step out of the back of a Black Rolls. It has that type of mystique.
#3980 of 24685 ljflx, shipo by designman Jan 23, 2004 (10:30 am)
ljflx, “The minivan will fit into their "ultimate driving machime" culture the moment MB and Lexus make it start to be a hit. Ultimately the cash book is the determining factor of everything. Is there any other reason why BMW and then Porsche built suv's.” Good point. But don’t hold your breath with BMW and minivans—it ain’t happening in the near future.   Shipo, with regard to power “Can you ever really have enough?” I hear you… good question. As a matter of fact it would make an excellent thread. I will answer it this way. I know power provides a lot of "utility" within the realm of legal speed limits such as passing etc., but I also parse it another way. I guess if I ever see flashing lights in my rear-view mirror in the heat of a passionate moment, indeed, I will have had enough!
#3981 of 24685 shipo by merc1 Jan 24, 2004 (1:08 pm)
Yep it's true, he didn't pen the 6-Series, but he still had to sign off on it I'm sure. His previous work on the 7 and 5 probably influenced the guy who did the 6 (obviously). I'll have to find the article with the name of the 6-Series' designer.   designman,   Well I haven't driven the current generation M3 (though I was "this" close to doing so), but from all I've read, its the ultimate in sport and it never lets you forget it. The next M5 is going to inhale the entire segment, including the ridiculously fast E55 AMG. A V10 sounds so good to me, but the car's styling is likely to be a sticking point for most buyers. I don't think it will cost over 100K, but I'd bet on 90K with that engine and drivetrain, it's basically race car material/spec. Mercedes will no doubt tweak the E55 (could drop the SLR's engine in, its the same engine basically) and there will be a new Audi RS6 for 2006 or so.   ljflx,   When you get the chance take a look at the G35's interior, specificallly the Coupe, it is no where near being worthy of the exterior and performance this car has. Now a re-do is rumored for 2005 delaying things further. Japanese/German cars: I've always had a soft spot for Acura in particular, but the exterior of the TL is just too much of a compromise, and the G35 Coupe is the only other Japanese car in this segment that I truly like, but it's interior is an issue. I got it! Give the G35 an Acura quality interior, problem solved! The German brands are my favorites, but in my price range I'm not crazy about the C230 Sedan (interior and engine) and I don't want a 3-Series, so only the A4 qualifies. Finally they've painted the entire bottom of the A4! Now if I were shopping at the E/5/A6 level or higher nothing from Japan would even be considered.   I agree, stylewise the Phantom does beat the Maybach, but I'm not crazy out the old-style interior of the Rolls, though it is of the highest quality. With the Rolls you simply know what it is from the minute you see one, the Maybach looks too much like S-Class ran into a Lincoln. It's not an ugly car, just not 300K+ distinctive.   M
#3983 of 24685 Coming to America by bwia Jan 25, 2004 (5:20 am)
I read somewhere that the Bugatti Veyron will make its US debut in April.   The Veyron is priced at $1.2 million, has a top speed of 256 mph and can go from 0-60 in 2.9 seconds. This rocket is powered by a 1001 horsepower W-16 engine. This is what I call the ultimate luxury sports car and the grandest display of conspicuous consumption.   Merc1 was the Veyron displayed at the Detroit auto show? And speaking of the Detroit show, Autoweek,(?) the PBS TV auto show, will devote next week’s program to the Detroit Auto show.   Enjoy!
#3984 of 24685 Phaeton by ljflx Jan 25, 2004 (7:15 am)
Merc1 - I don't know if this car makes it or not. It's reviewed pretty in-depth in todays NY Times and while the review isn't bad, it isn't overly impressive either. Overall it seems like a good car but VW missed on some basic non-automootive conveniences like cup holders, the CD player and the nav system pretty badly per the reviewer. MB can blow these things (not that they do) and still hit a homer because of their image and well established brand. VW can't. It seems that leases for this car are already heavily subsidized by VW and can be gotten at $697 per month in some areas. I know people who wish they could get $8-10k cheaper LS 430's and E-500's at that price. Heck I bet your hard pressed to get an E-320 at that price. I know my $51K GX is more expensive than that as well.
#3985 of 24685 bwia by merc1 Jan 25, 2004 (9:37 pm)
Nope, no Bugatti or Lotus. VW has found a money pit with that car, it's overbudget and way behind schedule. The car's outrageous engine and 7-speed SMG/F1 transmission are rumored to be the problem.   ljflx,   Well I've come to the like the Phaeton a good little bit, but I didn't know that massive center console didn't contain a CD player, and I didn't realize that on the A8 either until a few weeks ago. Same thing with Mercedes' CLK and C-Class, still no in-dash CD, stubborness.   I think VW should import a short wheelbase Phaeton and price it around 55K, right on top of the E500/545i/A6 4.2 etc, and keep the lwb model where it is. The car does offer value. I priced one at vw.com and came up with 76K for everything I would want in such a car, way below the S430 4Matic, 745Li, but right about even with a A8L, which begs the question "why" compared to the A8. The 7-Series, LS, and XJ don't have awd, the do-it-all S-Class does, but at a much higher price. The Phaeton W12 is a relative bargain compared the S600 and 760Li, but I predict they'll be precious few buyers at this level (95K) for a VW.   Dare I say it, but VW is taking the 1990 Lexus LS400 route of underpricing the car to get some market share. If the car is a hit I doubt those leases will remain that cheap, but you're the leasing expert, not me.   The dealership experience and VW's reliability are the flies in the buttermilk.    Audi's dealerships are brand new in Chicago, all except one on the near north side of Chicago (Fletcher Jones), VW's by comparison mostly suck big time, but some that carry the Phaeton are new and/or remodeled. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there isn't a compelling reason to pick this car over the Audi if you're a VW/Audi fan. There there are the LS430 and Jaguar XJ8, which cost less in most cases.   Overall I'm pulling for the car and await the sales numbers each month. BTW, there is a pretty good discussion about the Phaeton on the Phaeton board, complete with a VW represenative.   M
#3986 of 24685 merc1 by ljflx Jan 26, 2004 (6:20 am)
The difference between the Lexus approach and the VW approach is that Lexus allowed the car to be as cheap as $35-36k and you could add your options. But they wouldn't let the car cross around a $42k MSRP (I'm doing this from memory so I may be a bit off vs, actual prices back then) Most of the initial LS400's went in the 38-40k range which was a great bargain. Then of course they pushed the prices up once the car was successful. They never discounted heavily off sticker to get the car moving. This is like budgeting. Better to pick the number you can make and meet or overachieve it rather than put it up high and come down with each quarterly estimate. Of course you have to be realistic about that number you can make. In the lux arena the tendency is to think that something is really wrong when you see something too heavily discounted. Remember - at this stage the perception that something is wrong to a buyer can easily be more important than the reality that the Phaeton is or may be a great car.

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