Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
Jan 07, 2004 (7:43 pm)
Interesting observations from the Detroit Auto Show press/industry previews. I actually attended the Washington DC Auto Show this last weekend and am planning on going to the Detroit Show the weekend of the 18th. I will also be going to the NYC show in April since it is just a quick train ride from my NYC/NJ apartment.
At first, I was puzzled by the new MY06 GS but the more I look at the pictures and read about the upgraded technology, AWD and euro-driving intentions the more interested I get. One thing that troubles me is that I expected the new GS to be a MY05 car not MY06. The official press information just says the car will be available in 2005 but does not say what month. A MY06 designation would seem to say it will in October 05 or at least the later half of the year. However, I am still not sure what they are doing with the final new GS exterior design.
As ljflx stated, this means that the new LS will not be until MY07 which I assume means either October 2006 or April 2006 at the earliest. I still am holding on to our LS and was hoping to replace it with the new LS in October 2005 (as a MY06 release).
My wife really liked the silver 2004 LS we saw at the Washington Show but I believe that it will look really dated when the MY07 LS comes out. However, I feel Lexus really did improve the looks of the MY04 LS with only minor exterior revision. Until we really spent some serious time looking at it in silver (the color my wife would want) I had only seem a few at a distance on the highway.
As for BMW, I share ljflx's and your observations. I have had BMW's over the years and really like the last generation 7 series. My bottom line is that BMW is not even on my list of consideration anymore. I just wish that I had purchased the last generation 750Li before they came out with the current 7 series abortion.
By the way, I travel to Switzerland for business and the BMW 7 series is having even more sales problems there then here and it use to basically be BMW's best per-capita market.
Since I have always purchased all of my cars/trucks I typically try to wait for the new completely revised model before making a new purchase. In the case of the new 7 series that proved to be a big mistake.
I did come very close to purchasing a MB S600 a few months ago but was put off by all of the horror stories I keep hearing about MB having a lot of trouble with their computerized electronics. And, of course, the S600 basically has all of them. I was also put off buy the fact that MB excluded the S600 from the special 2.9% financing deal.
One other observation from the Washington Show, my wife and I did like the looks and feel of the Audi A8 L but not the VW Phaeton. The VW just left us both cold except for the interior. Also, the Audi is about 800 lb lighter with the same engine and overall size.
As for your comment on the Lincoln pick-up, I could not agree more. What the hell does anyone want (yet alone need) a Lincoln or Cadillac pick-up. Give me a break! And, I am actually getting ready to buy a new Dodge Ram for my place in Texas.
I enjoy you guys feed back and opinions. Please keep it up.
Jan 07, 2004 (8:50 pm)
The more I read about next generation cars, the more I think the entire car industry has taken a wrong turn.
In a nutshell, all of these new desgins are overweight, over-assisted and dynamically incompetent and unbalanced machines that need to be fixed by computer intervention. It is a brutal assessment, but nevertheless I think it true. They might be superbly comfortable transport appliances, but a pure driving environment they miserably fail to provide.
I think a smart luxury car vendor at this point in time would come in with a superbly crafted, but -other than ABS- utterly electronics-devoid car. Built to be light, engineered to be agile and competent without assistance. That would provide a huge and unique differentiator, and luxury buyers are borderline eccentric enough to ensure such a car would be a success. More of a private aircraft philosophy.
And while I love the idea of hybrids and their inherent efficiency, I'd love for at least *one* study to put the available torque to a slightly more rowdy use.
Are they dialing out the *fun* factor entirely out of the luxury car scene?
Jan 07, 2004 (10:25 pm)
"A few Lexus lovers bash the new GS and you're a voice of moderation on the subject?? It must be a new year."
Well unless you're a certain person on the "News and Views" board I won't say (harp) too much negatively about a persons's fav brand's new debut when it doesn't meet expectations...it can happen with any make.....I'm trying to be as fair as possible, on this board that is. I will say that I'm going to wait until next week before making a final judgement on the car. The only thing that's sort of curious to me as to why its going to take so long for it to go on sale, they're saying Spring 2005, thats seems like a long time to me.
I'm not sure what the S600L costs in Europe, I'll have to look it up. Could it be that the price C&D quoted could be in Euros?? Speaking of Mercedes and Europe, there is a new SLK for 2005. The pics/stats are on the germancarfans site, and the car will be shown to the public in March at Geneva.
On the A8, only the W12 model is getting the new grille, the V8 model will keep the current grille/look.
"I'm glad to see merc1 has his share of disappointment with his favorite brand as well."
Well none of these brands are perfect, come to think of it Ferrari (Enzo), Porsche (Cayenne), Mercedes (CLK, Maybach), BMW (5,6(?)7) have all introduced something that wasn't a knockout like the rest of their cars. So no brand is perfect. The saving grace is the for Mercedes, Porsche, and Ferrari they all have some stunners left in their lineups, whereas BMW has only one left, the 3-Series, imo.
#3884 of 24726 jamesfletcher2
Jan 07, 2004 (10:59 pm)
Interesting comments. You were considering a S600???? Yikes. Must be nice. The S-Class shouldn't be much of a problem at this point, the car was largely gutted in 2003, and the complaints have dropped since, its the C, ML and some E's mainly causing the problems for Mercedes now.
I just can't wait to get to Detroit. All this mere looking via the net is getting tiresome.
You raise some good points, and I for one understand you perfectly, but the luxury crowd on the whole wants more and more features, you either provide them or be left behind. The biggest indication of this was when the most driver-biased car of the group, the 7-Series became a mobile computer in 2002. While it still drives right, the interface is oh so complicated. Your view is the majority on this (not disagree, just looking at the market prefers) and will soon be relagated to only sports cars.
#3885 of 24726 Pablo - go racing and think about speed limiters
Jan 08, 2004 (3:31 am)
You can have lots and lots of fun in SCCA racing where the race cars are bare bones, the dynamics something you can set up and your skill at driving is evident and measureable.
Street racing and exercising automobile dynamics in public is dangerous and encourages law enforcement to step up the ante in controlling auto hormones.
At some point in time, somebody in a grossly overpowered super car that is going 2x the speed limit will kill someone else. In the ensuing litigation the prosectuor is going to ask the jury the question the Walter Mittys all dread, "If the speed limit in most places in our country is 65 - 70 mph, why in the world do manufacturers intentionally build automobiles that can go twice that fast? They must do it to encourage people to drive that fast and therefore share in the culpability for the death that was caused." If the jury agrees, the auto industry is going to get a curve ball they have deserved for a long time.
Legislation could go into place to have governors on the cars. It would be easy for example to integrate GPS location info with a speed limit data base. That way your speed limit would be controlled to be suitable to local conditions. The system could be set up allow over speed for passing for a reasonable period of time. This might even save a few car loads of teenagers from hitting trees at 80 mph.
#3886 of 24726 pablo_l
Jan 08, 2004 (5:10 am)
Correction. In my post 3884, I mean to say minority, not majority.
Jan 08, 2004 (6:02 am)
The A8 6.0L costs 117.000 Euros here in Germany,
the MB S 600 short wheelbase costs 127.000 Euros (can't find the L's prize).
Saw a A8 6.0L today on the road here in Ingolstadt and the grill looks amazing!!
Jan 08, 2004 (7:35 am)
I disagree. You don't have to go drive like a nut to enjoy a more puristic everyday driving experience. Your point has nothing to do with the car itself, and everything with the rider's right foot. Any of these electronic wonders can cause just as much destruction and incite illegal driving - perhaps even easier. It has nothing to do with electronic gimmicks.
Jan 08, 2004 (4:02 pm)
I am disappointed with what happened to the car. The front looks ok, but the rear end just does not work on the car. I was surprised when I read that all-wheel drive is only available on the V6. Wonder what the reasoning was in that decision?
Jan 08, 2004 (9:32 pm)
Actually the only S600 in Europe is the long wheelbase version (unless something has changed), sorry for the "L" at the end, I has just finished looking at the car on another site with the L shown.