Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#3643 of 24723 fleet sales
Dec 07, 2003 (4:13 pm)
Cadillac has really lowered the number of Devilles sold to fleets.
They did this over two years ago, that's why you see the decline from 2001-2002 but a smaller decline from 2002-2003.
Can't believe you guys.
Cadillac is about to have it's best year since 1994 and you are already dissing them.
They are about to overtake MB and you guys are already put a spin on why it is happening.
No respect, I tell ya'.
Oh yeah, and we can certainly take out Deville's fleet sales if BMW takes out Mini sales.
Dec 07, 2003 (4:54 pm)
It is just my opinion that We have made some silly comments on this board in order to make one point or another...(myself certainly included....)
It does seem however that car companies are in the business of selling cars and I don't think it matters to them who they sell them to. The more cars they sell the more money they make and the more people that are introduced to their product the brighter the companies future.
I will guarantee you that if Mercedes could sell taxi's in this country they would...(they sell lots of them in other countries) They sell cars to Armys for use by generals in other countries. They would crack the rental market if they could and of course they make fleet sales when they can.
Bottom line a once great car company has lost it's way, they are over priced, have declining sales and are establishing a rep. for a less then reliable product....They don't offer the luxury or ride of a Lexus or the handling and driving fun of a BMW. They are stuck in the middle.
They will eventually find their way back..
Dec 07, 2003 (6:34 pm)
"Bottom line a once great car company has lost it's way, they are over priced, have declining sales and are establishing a rep. for a less then reliable product....They don't offer the luxury or ride of a Lexus or the handling and driving fun of a BMW. They are stuck in the middle"
Great point. Couldn't agree more !
But, MB fans should have plenty to say on this topic
Fire away, merc1 !
Dec 07, 2003 (9:59 pm)
Whether that is 80% of the car or 95+% - what did you think of it?
MB sales - They still sell double what they did 8-10 years ago and they are the most expensive cars. Cutting price would hurt both image and profits (their build and distribution costs are much higher than Lexus you have to remember. Lexus sells more vehicles with less than a quarter of MB dealerships! That's efficiency) Plus they made a pretty big cut in prices already from the last gen cars particularly on the S-class. But it is still a helluva brand and many aspire to it. I doubt they are declining but as the market expands they are definitely getting a smaller slice of the expansion pie than Lexus and BMW are getting. I do think BMW's poor designs will hurt them a lot in the next few years though and you will see Lexus and MB gain at their expense. BMW better be very careful with that 3 series restyle. The C-class will rout it.
Dec 07, 2003 (10:55 pm)
I do not like the styling of the new BMW but that is something that will be quickly changed as sales fall off.
I think Mecerdes (a car I and probably most of us once aspired to) will take a very long time to fix their problems. You are right They can't cut costs and the failing reputation of their products quality can not changed in a year or two...IMHO, It is currently getting worse not better.
Dec 07, 2003 (11:38 pm)
It simply amazes me how sales are one minute the proof that a car company is finished and the next they don't mean anything. Now, at this very moment Mercedes-Benz has lost it's way because they are not selling as many cars as Lexus, BMW and Cadillac is closing in. There always seemed to be one business minded person in here to understand that Mercedes' sticker prices alone shouldn't have ever allowed them to compete in the sales race. That remains the case I see. Gee, I wonder why Maybach can't outsell Bentley and Ferrari can't outsell Porsche, price shouldn't keep this from happening, it's the cars that aren't up to snuff. Lets not pay any attention to the fact that Lexus' sales dominance over BMW and everyone else is based solely on SUV sales, not their supposed to be oh-so great cars. Yet nobody can see that the IS, GS and even the LS have either fallen in the last year (LS), or never sold good period, GS and IS. Nevermind that Mercedes' competing models either sell at the same rate S vs LS, or better, E vs GS, C vs IS, while costing thousands more. It is written nowhere else than in the Lexus handbook about sales equal the best. Interestingly enough the same problem exists at work with management, crunching numbers until they are silly. No reguard or thought about anything else.
Yep, a 6 percent drop in one month after years and years sales records surely spells the end.
Now Mercedes will resort to selling taxis and turn to fleet sales to make up the difference.
Even Mercedes' traditional market position between a BMW and whatever softer-riding cars that have always existed before Lexus is seen as being "stuck". Amazingly this has worked for years and years all over the world, with BMW now having stated their goal is to become more diverse and offer more product to reach their mainl goal of outselling Mercedes worldwide by 2008, yet Mercedes is stuck in the middle. Again this is only in the Lexus handbook of market rules which are dictated by whatever sales numbers are posted in a given month, lets ignore everything else.
Quality control problems with specific components can't be changed in short order with changes at the supplier level, production line, or facelifts to current products, because these things are too expensive, but a styling direction can be changed in short order with what I guess is a cheaper task, a total redesign of cars that have just been introduced. Makes perfect sense to me.
Let me set the scene early, this same crowd will surely cry foul next couple of years, when and if the 1-Series and X3 allow BMW to pass Lexus in sales. They'll say that the 1-Series and X3 aren't "luxury vehicles". This same group can't even acknowledge that the Lexus sales juggernaught is being fueled by 1 car (ES300) and two SUVs (RX, GX), yet none of them claim that Lexus is finished despite not being able to give away the IS, GS models.
I've haven't read so much nonsense in quite a while, at least on this board.
Here's in interesting concept that will surely be shot down in minutes after this posting. Since we're dealing in future predictions of gloom and doom. Here's a nice "what if" scenarios. What if Mercedes had 3 SUVs to equal Lexus'? Going by the two brands sales relationship in cars, Mercedes' SUVs would sell just as well or better than Lexus', but lets not even think about anything like that because it wouldn't fit in with the current hysteria.
Well honestly its a very sleek concept, but it doesn't do anything for me. It doesn't have any surface details or anything, it just a sleek blob to me. That said, I'll wait for the real car, which should have some more detail to it.
#3649 of 24723 MB's current state
Dec 08, 2003 (5:14 am)
I just want to go on record here and give MB it's due.
The current problems seem to be related to the hyper advanced electrical systems that MB has decided they want to be a leader in.
Not the powertrains and body.
The areas where they are having problems seem to be afflicting the German auto industry as a whole.
#3650 of 24723 Hyper Advanced?
Dec 08, 2003 (6:15 am)
I assume that the 'Hyper Advanced' is tongue-in-cheek right? As in wink, wink!
Dec 08, 2003 (7:29 am)
I will bet that the 1-series and X3 will be flops in the US and could drag down the nameplatess very badly. At those price points consumers are seeking value not a luxury brand. Nor will consumers buy a luxury brand that fails to deliver real luxury though there will be some that are fooled initially. But it will be the equivalent of buying a fake fur coat. There is an elasticity of pricing (particularly in the US) that a luxury brand should not go below. Those cars will break that threshhold. It's not a bad decision to build the cars but it will be a bad decision to market them here.
Dec 08, 2003 (8:00 am)
I finally received my Car & Driver over the weekend and it had a harsh review of the BMW X3. Their main complaint centers on the horrible ride (sounds as bad as the Infiniti FX45). And in order to rush this thing to market it is not even being made by BMW, but by a third party in a factory in Austria. C&D also had complaints about the new 5 Series, questioning not only its styling but some of the electronics since they ruin the pure driving experience.
Yet, despite these issues there will always be people who buy these cars simply because they say "BMW."