Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#3307 of 24726 i_drive
Oct 20, 2003 (8:43 pm)
Just a little ahead there....there won't be a new S-Class for the 05' model year. It's not scheduled to be shown until the Frankfurt autoshow of 2005, which means a spring 2006 debut here. It could debute at the Geneva show next spring, but I seriously doubt that. There won't be a "S430" or "S500" either, there will be all new direct-injection engines of different displacements. Now Mercedes might ignore the actual engine's displacement and badge the upper V8 S as a "500" model because of the equity in that designation.
Ahh...what you're describing is the difference between reliability and build quality. Audi does make the best interiors of the German makes, and arguably the industry. Their cars are heavy, solid and generally very robust in their construction, but their "guts" just don't hold up as well as a BMW or Mercedes. The old A8 and current A6 4.2 basically use the same drivetrain and they are notorious for dropping transmissions. I've seen these range anywhere from 5-14K replace! It should be interesting to see the new A8's showing in this area since Audi switched to a totally new ZF 6-speed auto for the 2004 model. This is the same trans that Jaguar (XK,XJ,S-Type), BMW (5, 6 and 7-Series), VW (Touareg) and Rolls-Royce (Phantom) use.
Oct 20, 2003 (9:14 pm)
A guy on another board has had a horrible time with his '03, so much so that Audi is buying it back after $20K in repairs. Ouch!
Read for yourself
kwarnold "Real-World Trade-In Values" Oct 20, 2003 10:23pm
Heavy, solid, and generally very robust build, eh ? Are you sure about that Merc1 ?
#3309 of 24726 Amazing.......
Oct 20, 2003 (10:01 pm)
Re-read the previous post. You missed the point (the difference between build quality and reliability) just that fast.
#3310 of 24726 Audis and others
Oct 21, 2003 (3:13 am)
I understand that a new replacement 5/6 speed transmisssion for an Audi A4 is $10,000!!!
That will get anybody's attention.
Audi A8's ride quality is hampered by the couple of hundred extra pounds sitting over the front tires.
It will never ride as well as a Lexus/Jag/Merecedes. And I am sure when they go AWD there will be similiar comments about ride quality.
Lexus's can and do have problems that can be quite expensive to repair.
They just thave fewer probs than the others.
New A/C $2500-3000.
Faded instrument panel/climate control/radio LCD's
$3-400 for each item. $1000s if taken to the dealer.
Suspension parts are expensive, shocks,tie rods, etc. etc.
90K service with timing belt, water pump, valves,
This is opposed to a BMW which is $3-400 Every time it goes in for anything.
I would never let a BMW/Mercedes get out of warranty. A Lexus out of warranty doesn't scare me.
Oct 21, 2003 (3:55 am)
The S-Class is already available with AWD and there haven't been any complaints about it's ride quality. By all accounts it rides and handles just like the regular S-Class. And I know Lexus isn't going to give up the ride quality their buyers so love just for awd.
My guess would be that Audi tuned the A8's suspension for sportiness and the nervous ride is just a result of this, especially with the 19' wheels. Being awd has nothing to do with it. Wasn't Car and Driver's car suffering from a computer glitch concerning the suspension? Others like Motor Trend and Automobile haven't found fault with it's ride.
Oct 21, 2003 (6:43 am)
Keep in mind the majority of those repairs come well after 100K miles. I did have the rear shocks replaced on my 92 LS b/c I was getting annoyed with the soft ride. Cost: $325 at the Lexus dealer. The shocks themselves were only $65 each. Even the LCD displays are only $400 at the dealer. I pretty much agree with everything you said, just wanted to highlight that those costs are even lower based on my own experience.
I think b4z said 3-400, as in Hundred. You're not going to win the reliability debate. A Lexus trumps anything in long term reliablilty costs. It's how Lexus sell cars while BMW probably uses Sportiness to sell theirs.
I'm not saying BMW is a poorly built car, but in the Long Run a LS car will be better in that regard.
In your opinion, what is Build Quality vs Reliablity? Are they mutually exclusive?