Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
Oct 11, 2003 (4:46 pm)
Your logic is amazing. Yes the Lexus LS430 sells as a Toyota Celsior in Japan and Asia. Yes that is also about to change as Toyota takes the Lexus branding worldwide and then all those high upscale Asian Toyota sales which are counted as Toyota's now, get counted as Lexus sales in the future. Do the translation on a Celsior and you'll find it sells in the $60k-$80k range. Is the car, which in many cases includes DVD entertainment systems in it which I wish they would include here, not a luxury car because it has the Toyota badge?? I think quality of car and refinement defines luxury. Price becomes a function of that. Do you, for one second think a C-class is a luxury car because it has a Benz badge on it? I certainly don't.
Pablo - post 3147 was excellent and right on the money. You are also correct in your other post that the SC430 was selling over list and had a waiting list. The LS430 was also selling over list price in the first few months of the 2001 model year with a 6 month wait for the costliest ultra model. I hope that never happens again. I'm a buyer, not a fan rooting for something that hurts my wallet.
Oct 11, 2003 (4:54 pm)
See your post #5144...- "Now they (MB) build cars to a certain price point and their quality has suffered"- are you saying they build cars to a (significantly higher) price point and that's why their quality has suffered? And that's why Lexus can build an arguably fast, luxurious, and more reliable car for $20K+ less???? Is that some twisted defense of MB? Doesn't make sense to me. Are you somehow paying an extra $20K for tradition and prestige?
I work too damn hard for my money. Now if Lexus can just make a better looking, somewhat sportier cars while maintaining their reliability and luxury (LS/GS/ES/SC), MB would be in big, big, trouble-
#3156 of 24726 300eguy05
Oct 11, 2003 (5:38 pm)
You said "the 2004 LS has a Pre-safe system just like the 2003 S does."
NO IT DOESN'T.
Let's see Lexus' description of their "pre-collision system": "The Pre-Collision (PCS) System  uses radar to detect possible obstacles ahead. Sensors then determine in advance whether a crash is unavoidable. Once an accident is calculated to be inevitable, a computer immediately activates the Pre-Collision seatbelt, which restrains the driver and front passenger, and the Pre-Collision brake assist, which applies maximum braking force once the brake pedal is pressed."
Here is MBs description of their "Pre-safe" system: "PRE-SAFE® helps prepare occupants for a possible collision before it occurs. If ESP and/or Brake Assist areactivated upon sensing certain vehicle dynamics that suggest an accident is possible but, according to system sensors, are not correcting the situation, PRE-SAFE snugs the front seat belts via electric tensioners, adjusts the front passenger seat (and rear seats, with 4-place seating package)2 for more favorable seat-belt and air-bag effectiveness, and (if a possible rollover is detected) closes the sunroof. If no collision occurs, PRE-SAFE reverses the front seat-belt tensioners, and occupants may re-adjust their seats and the sunroof."
By "adjusting the front passenger seats" what pre-safe does is to prevent submarining by lowering the rear of the drivers seat cushion while simultaneously raising the front of the driver's seat. "Brake assist" is also a feature of all MBs whether they have the pre-safe feature or not.
Clearly the MB version is much more sophisticated and well thought out.
Oct 11, 2003 (5:54 pm)
Oh, yeah, one more question re your “lead rather than follow in the luxury car market” comment: who is leading who when a LS430 faces off against a S430 from a standing start?
LS430: 0-60 in 5.9 sec, 290 hp, 320 lb-ft
S430: 0-60 in 6.9 sec, 275 hp, 295 lb-ft
Well, maybe if we take the $18k in cash saved with the LS, and convert it to $1 bills and put it in the trunk, the weight makes the performance gap narrow a bit.
But the gap will widen down the road..quite considerably...with Lexus hybrid technology. It'll be like adding 2 cylinders when it comes to acceleration, but subtracting 2-4 cylinders when it comes to fuel consumption.
#3158 of 24726 is boo20 for real?
Oct 11, 2003 (6:02 pm)
Some of boo's hyperbole is so extreme that you have to wonder if even he really believes it. Could he really be working for MB or Lexus, and conducting some sort of weird marketing study?
Oct 11, 2003 (6:19 pm)
Ok, so perhaps they are not exactly the same. But, I was not comparing, rahter making a point.
Oct 11, 2003 (6:23 pm)
0 - 60 times? That's not the most important consideration when I'm looking for a winter car. Remember I want AWD (which, incidentally, Lexus does not make in a sedan). Anybody can build a fast car. I had a Camaro in the early eighties that would smoke both of these cars. So what does that prove? It had old technology: overhead valves, carburator etc.
If you really want to compare 0 - 60 times look at the E55. At 4.5 sec to 60 it is faster than a vette and will have the Lexus eating its dust.
Oct 11, 2003 (6:27 pm)
You wrote, "0 - 60 times? That's not the most important consideration when I'm looking for a winter car. Remember I want AWD..."
I must say, this sounds like a rationalization. Would you be dismissing 0-60 times if a base S430 "smoked" a base LS430? Are the curve-anticipating headlights (that MB wasn't first with anyway) more important to you?
Oct 11, 2003 (6:30 pm)
Is anyone else as far along as Toyota with the hybrid technology? Other than Honda and GM, I haven't read much about anyone else. That technology is indeed going to set this whole segment on its ear. Plus the improved gas mileage coming with more power to boot is really going to peak the interest of the European buying public. Changing the way the game is played is the biggest innovation of all. Lexus already did that once in 1990. Apparently it's on the verge of doing it a second time.
#3163 of 24726 have you noticed
Oct 11, 2003 (7:24 pm)
that some of the Mercedes zealots dismiss survey data (JDP) and 0-60 times when it doesn't favor their marque over Lexus? Yet, they'll look to sportiness of driving and AMG data to negate the Lexus arguments. Oh...then there's the tired "refrigerator" looks and "Buick" driving characteristics arguments as applied to Lexus continually being dredged up.