Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#3143 of 24726 legendary and catching up
Oct 11, 2003 (1:49 pm)
No doubt Benz was legendary and in fact both BMW and Lexus have been catching up. Things changed since the early 1990s when Benz was till the best made and most reliable car. Lexus came up with LS which cost half of a Benz and keep kaisen it into the closest of any car can ever get to become flawless. BMW keep winning customers away with the excitements they feel every corner they turn.
What can be more embarrassing than the J.D. Power score this year? You can argue the accuracy all you want, but in 1991, Benz was #1 according to the same institution. you are right about “get their act together”, but that should be the doing of the 3 star brand. Remember, as great as Benz is, there should be no excuses.
Oct 11, 2003 (1:57 pm)
MB is repsonding to market demand. When they were building cars "the old fashioned way" in the early ninties they were getting their butts kicked in the marketplace by the upstart Lexus. They were losing $600,000,000 a year doing it your way i.e., building cars without reagrd to price. Now they build cars to a certain price point and their quality has suffered. Nevertheless, as a business strategy, they have literally come back from the grave and, in spite of Lexus, have increased their sales and profits literally on a quarterly basis. This is a business. The goal is to make money. MB will decide in its own time (and may have already if rumors are true) when they need to go back to the "old way" of doing things. One thing is certain: the demise of MB has been greatly exagerated.
Oct 11, 2003 (2:30 pm)
As I see it, you are simply trying to stir emotions with the inflamatory statements you make about Lexus and Toyota. No one can confuse a Toyota for a Lexus, except those who are deliberately being mischievous. Lexus came in 1990 and ate Mercedes' lunch. And that makes Merc fans unhappy. Add in the opposite direction to which Lexus and Mercedes are taking in car reliability and quality, and the albatross to which DCX hung around its neck (I refer to Chrysler Corp), and you can see Merc fan's frustrations. So people who own Mercs gotta find something to hang on to, and the only thing of last resort is the marqueness or heritage of the brand. What else is there to hang on to these days if you own a Mercedes ?
7G-tronic tranny may be innovative, but how about the innovation of a gas-electric hybrid car ? I suppose it doesn't register on Merc fans richter scale!!!
#3146 of 24726 bluestar1
Oct 11, 2003 (2:44 pm)
You said "No one can confuse a Toyota for a Lexus". Well as you know Toyota has them confused as well as the LS430 is marketed as the Toyota Celsior in Japan (and, I think, elsewhere in the world).
Anyway why would Lexus' success bother me? I'm trading in my '00 E class this year for an S class. I could go with Lexus if I wanted to but have not been convinced it is as good. It's not like I'm trying to justify a past purchase. I'm buying a new car and it won't be an LS430.
Oct 11, 2003 (3:08 pm)
Mercedes as a luxury brand: if Lexus is Toyota, then MB is Chrysler and/or Smart. It is very myopic to claim Mercedes is more upscale when the fact is that they've been creeping downmarket, and making most of their money there, for over 20 years. No one can argue with the fact MB carries tradition, prestige and brand value, but to claim Lexus = Toyota is silly, because it misses the entire point of brand equity. It was a smart move by Totyota to separate the 2, and they've done so with tremendous success.
The fact is that consumers are suckers for perception and image. And this discussion prefectly illustrates how irrational such things are, and how silly arguments that are carried emotionally can get. I save the latter for my marriage.
Oct 11, 2003 (3:18 pm)
But, as I've pointed out, Lexus IS a Toyota. At least Toyota thinks so. Otherwise why would they market it as such in their home country?
Seems to me that Toyota is appealing to the snobbery of American car buyers by giving it a different name in this market.
How else to explain this?
#3149 of 24726 boo20
Oct 11, 2003 (3:20 pm)
Problems with MB showed up with the armored car that was under development before the LS 400.
I also know of several people who had multiple problems with their late 80's E class cars.
The problems with the Mercedess of today is mostly electrical due to the hi tech systems in use.
Not the drivetrains.
#3150 of 24726 Lexus in Japan - New LS 430
Oct 11, 2003 (3:26 pm)
I think that I read that Toyota is going to market some models in Japan under the Lexus name.
I looked at the 2004 LS430 today. It does seem a bit quicker with the new 6 speed transmission, and it now has a "tiptronic" feature. The one I drove was a base model. I also saw one with the sport package, but I didn't get to drive it. It will be interesting to see the sales volume.
Oct 11, 2003 (3:36 pm)
I give up...I admit it...Mercedes/Chrysler (S-Class) is far prettier then my lexus..Has far more snob appeal...is more technologicly advanced... is faster and stops ALMOST as quickly as a Lexus LS430.
You win.....I must have made a horrible buying decision... I am now stuck with this Ultra luxury beater that costs about $30,000 less then the comperable S class, and never breaks down....POOR ME.
Oct 11, 2003 (3:46 pm)
You asked: "How else to explain this? "
Answer: Toyota is a well recognized brand in Japan and all of Asia. Hence the perpetuation of the brand even with the twin versions named Lexus here in the US. Toyota is to Japan what GM is to America. Rock solid. This year, Toyota finally permitted Lexus branding in Japan. I guess we'll see how the average Japanese will accpet this change. The rest of the world recognizes the difference b/w Toyota and Lexus.
So, boo20, why won't you consider the LS is your car shopping ? It's not like its gonna kill you to take it for a spin ? Maybe it won't fit in within your crowd, but what the heck ? Give it a shot all the same. Then come back and tell us what you think, from a direct experience point of view. That assumes you can find an '04 LS430 lying around in your local Lexus dealership.