Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#24676 of 24723 A different view of the HELC
Sep 12, 2009 (7:08 pm)
Here is another take on the whole HELC thing.
1) Clearly there is no relatonship between purchase price and ownership satisfaction. In fact, for some people the more they pay for a car, the crazier they get if they have a problem. Take a look at the posts on the MB S Class site by a guy who paid 140K for an S63, had his air conditioner compressor fail, and it will take MB a month to get him one. In the interim they will "only" give him an E Class to drive. This guy is almost beside himself with anger.
2) Moreover, not only is there no relationship between purchase price and customer satisfaction, there is no relationship between purchase price and reliability/longevity of the vehicle. A BMW 7 Series or an S Class will not last any longer than a Chevy Malibu. In fact, given the complex electronics, a 12 year old 7 Series or S Class may be at the end of its economic life. The idea of buying an S Class as you hit 60 and driving off into the sunset with it is outmoded.
If you agree with me on a lack of a relationship between purchase price and happiness and purchase price and reliability/longevity, what are we left with? Probably the "sweet spot" is on that CD list of the five best cars for 50K!,
On a personal note, we recently added a new 2009 Volvo XC to our fleet (Porsche Cayenne, 2001 XC, 2008 Silverado, 1987 Grand Cherokee Wagoneer, etc) and love it. We paid 35K for it, got 5 years of free maintenance and factory warranty and couldn't be happier.
#24677 of 24723 THE REAL 50K CAR
Sep 13, 2009 (8:18 am)
Taking the argument that due to the complexity of the various top 5 $50 k automobiles we could say or rather spend that amount of money on another, completely different set of circumstances re. costs of ownership.. Let's choose a Lexus E350 and option it out of better let's spend a few more dollars and get a LS460. Not only am I getting a high quality auto but one of routine service and hundreds of thousand of trouble-free miles.
Why buy those German symbols of big egos and get a Japanese symbol of both ego and success?
#24678 of 24723 Re: THE REAL 50K CAR [bob204]
Sep 13, 2009 (10:16 am)
I agree. I learned my lesson over the years with German cars and have been quite happy with Lexus for the past 10 or 12 years. Ironically, my second choice right now would be the Genesis.
#24679 of 24723 Re: THE REAL 50K CAR [houdini1]
Sep 13, 2009 (6:23 pm)
Its sad that no one even mentions Jag. The money is right and the reliability is the best.
A comparably equipped XF is less money than a 5 Series and will be utterly trouble free. You will never even get to know the Service Writers first name. An XJ is perhaps 25K less than the S Class and has won numerous JD Power Awards for not only relibility but also the dealer experience,
#24680 of 24723 Re: THE REAL 50K CAR [blckislandguy]
Sep 13, 2009 (7:14 pm)
I have always liked the XJ but never owned one. We were behind a gorgeous XK this afternoon and my wife was quite taken by it, as was I.
#24681 of 24723 Re: THE REAL 50K CAR [bob204]
Sep 30, 2009 (11:12 am)
Honestly you must have a few loose screws if you really think that a Japanese clunker like the LS is better than any German car. second you are still like other before you attempting to compare 2 cars that are in separate classes. I am an OWNER of a "German ego car" and last time i checked my car is older than i am and has more than 200k miles on it and it still runs like new and i haven't done any mechanical work to it ever during the past 5 years that i have owned the vehicle. and for the record a toyota with a different badge and name is still a toyota and as it stands right now my roommate has a '01 toyota that he bought with only 12k miles on it and now its at 80k miles and it sounds as if its on its last leg. Please feel free to challenge his vehicle service history b/c i see him take it directly to the dealer each time to have it serviced and so far he's just got to go back AGAIN for the same reasons he went last time. Toyota/Lexus=
Be smart buy the E-Class if you want a luxury car that costs around $50k to start and the S-Class if you want a car "in the same class" but far more superior to the LS
#24682 of 24723 A better value proposition?
Oct 31, 2009 (5:21 pm)
Earlier iterations of this board went thru the Lexus vs Mercedes War some time ago. Afterall a while it all got very tiring. So, at the risk of boring anyone, I'd like to give you my experience for what it is worth.
I had a couple of free hours last night and I stopped in at a central MA Lexus dealership. The sales guys were remarkably well informed and seemingly had all done tours of duty at other high end dealerships selling competing brands. In short, they had good product knowledge.
It looked like a new Lexus LS compares very favorably against an S Class. Not only is the list price of 74K with AWD a lot less than a comparable S Class, but apparently the Lexus dealer has a 12% profit margin and so can discount the car. Not so on an MB where the dealer has I think only a 6% profit margin and can't offer much of a discount. As a result the transaction price on the LS is significantly lower than list price. Moreover, not only would you pay less, the LS retains far more of its list price three years later. Mercedes engineering? Their AWD system apparently doesn't hold up when bolted to their 7 speed tranny, so an S Class with fourmatic doesn't have the 7 speed but I think a 5 speed. Lexus bolts its class leading 8 speed tranny to both 2WD and AWD. This makes you wonder a little about the long term reliability of the MB tranny. When you throw in the superior Lexus customer service and the better reliability a new LS seemss to be a much better value proposition than a new S Class.
But, as I walked around the LS, I couldn't help but think that somehow it wasn't the real thing. No tradition, no heritage. I thought of a polyester shirt vs. a 100 % cotton shirt. I think that for 70K you could either buy today a new left over 2009 LS (or wait a couple of months and buy a new 2010) or a used 2008 S Class. I think I'd rather have the S Class and have the heritage, tradition, etc.dumb as it may seem.
#24683 of 24723 used phaeton & other 12 cylinder fun
Oct 31, 2009 (6:18 pm)
I saw a phaeton on the highway this week and was reminded as a VW fan of its awesomeness while also its oddness and rarity .
could it be a good value used car? some have 12 cylinders! Fun!
C&D recently did a "best cars for under $20k, used or new" - and
one was a ~1990s 12 cylinder Benz with high mileage. Also fun.
Hopefully cars like the above are eligible for discussion here unless there is a model-year restriction ?! cheers.
#24684 of 24723 Re: A better value proposition? [blckislandguy]
Nov 02, 2009 (1:37 pm)
FYI....MB 4Matic has the same 7 speed trasmission as RWD model.
#24685 of 24723 Re: used phaeton & other 12 cylinder fun [elias]
Nov 02, 2009 (5:40 pm)
C&D had a big caveat on the MB... you better have a lot of money to spend on repairs. The guy who bought the MB featured in the mag had spent almost as much on repairs as his original purchase price. I talked to a retired MB mechanic who advised to stay far away from the 12-cylinder models. Every repair is very expensive because they're so hard to work on.