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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Replying to: brightness04 (Apr 24, 2007 2:06 pm)  The 2008 EPA rating system will negatively impact mpg ratings for most cars and trucks. This will have a number of ramifications. For one, many cars will be thrust into the gas-guzzler category, and will carry tax penalties that they did not carry before. Some cars that were already gas-guzzlers will emerge from the new ratings with even worse gas-guzzler ratings, and be hit with even larger gas-guzzler tax penalties. All of this is a windfall for the government, even when absolutely no changes were ever made to those cars... just a measurement change. Nasty, huh?  It is reported that the highest mpg hybrids could suffer the most... possibly up to a difference of 30%. No one knows for sure, however. And especially no one knows the actual hit that the larger hybrids will take, because they are primarily used to bolster HP and they are less capable of delivering high MPG ratings, as the LS600hL proves. The hit could be negligable or similar to its ICE counterpart. It remains to be seen. The LS460L ICE V-8 delivers 27 highway mpg as rated in '07 and the '08 LS600hL is expected to deliver 20 highway mpg. No matter how you slice it, the ratings changes are very unlikely to make the LS600hL significantly better, if at all, than the LS460L, and they have the potential to be WORSE. At BEST, they will be be similar, meaning NO SIGNIFICANT or meaningful difference in fuel efficiency between the two models... quite possibly WORSE for the LS600hL.  The original hype was that the LS600hL would deliver terrific fuel economy and have tremendous power, but the REALITY is that the fuel economy is, and will be no matter how you spin a post, VERY SIMILAR to the LS460L, and will NOT accelerate better than the LS460L, and if a test shows that it does, it would be within the same tolerance of difference that the LS460 would also have... point being that the acceleration of the LS600hL and the LS460L are similar enough to easily conclude that the LS600hL does NOT actually deliver any tremendous power advantage over the LS460L. (Of course this is due to its 887 pounds of excess technological FAT). And now as cargo space has become a measured specification of most cars, the fact remains that the LS600hL has a whopping 35% SMALLER trunk than it's LS460L counterpart... something a large and long wheelbase car should be able to boast, not be ashamed of. There is not and will not be any significant difference, no matter who tests the car or no matter which year's EPA rating system is used. The LS600hL's data is much too aligned with the LS460's to ever even hope to suddenly be significantly better in any way whatsoever. Quite simply, it ain't gonna change. It is what it is!... and everyone needs to realize that. If you must have AWD, then THAT's the real truth about what you can get from the LS600hL... at the cost of the trunk and a LOT of extra money, in comparison to its counterpart, the LS460L. It is what it is! And you and I should not enter into a rhetorical posture just to hash back and forth about it. If you want to believe that the LS600hL gets incredible gas mileage compared to the LS460L... be my guest. If you want to believe that it has enormous performance advantages over the LS460L... be my guest. If you want to believe that the diminuitive trunk space isn't a problem in a car like this... then be my guest. As for me... I see this overweight car as delivering an inadequate advantage, if any at all, over its counterpart, the LS460L, especially in consideration of it's hefty price tag.  TagMan
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Replying to: tagman (Apr 24, 2007 4:38 pm) 12,000 / 20 = 600 (gallons consumed by LS600HL in 12k miles) 12,000 / 12 = 1000 (gallons consumed by S600, even assuming no hit at all from the 2008 test method; the reality will be as low as 9-10mpg, but let me just use 12mpg for the time being because the S600 will still lose and lose big even with this help) 1000 - 600 = 400 (gallons, the fuel saving of LS600 vs. S600) 600 - 400 = 200 (gallons, the total fuel budget of a hypothetical car that can save again as much compared to Ls600) 12,000 / 200 = 60 (mpg, the fuel economy that hypothetical car would have to deliver) In short, in terms of fuel consumption, LS600HL is exactly the midway point between the gas guzzling S600 and a hypothetical super duper fuel miser that delivers 60mpg. That's even assuming S600 can maintain 12mpg under 2008 testing method, which is highly unlikely; the real result will probably be 10mpg or less, but I'm just using 12mpg for now. There is no production car that can deliver 60mpg even under the 2007 testing method. Under 2008 method is going to be even more unlikely if most of the high mpg cars (they are often hybrids of one form or another) get cut by as much as 30% as you say. That's the reality: a switch from S600 to LS600 can save more fuel than any switch from LS600HL to any other production car, even the microcars with hybrid or diesel! That is an astonishing achievement! BTW, I agree with you that it is quite an unconscienable windfall for the government, with the new gas mileage ratings.
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Replying to: brightness04 (Apr 25, 2007 4:28 pm) The entire exchange is not very productive...but it is very entertaining!! 
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Replying to: houdini1 (Apr 26, 2007 6:27 am) 
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Replying to: designman (Apr 26, 2007 5:18 pm) I don't think the LS600LH is a horrible car but I agree that it is not much of a bargain when compared to the non hybrib LS. My main problem is with hybrids in general. I just don't like them at their current level of technology. Too weak, too heavy, too complicated and too expensive.
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Replying to: houdini1 (Apr 27, 2007 1:35 pm) Again I agree with you, that I also don't think the LS600hL is a horrible car, but its achievements, as contrasted to the LS460L just don't look all that spectacular to me, and that's why I've been critical of it. Merc is not coming back, unfortunately. As least that's how he has explained it to me. He has his reasons. So... for now, the responsibility to keep this thing going is up to us. Yikes!! TagMan
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Replying to: tagman (Apr 27, 2007 7:52 pm) That really is too bad. Merc's encyclopedic knowledge of all things M-B is unmatched by any of us.
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Replying to: lexusguy (Apr 27, 2007 8:43 pm) TagMan |
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I should have elaborated on that, but I was posting from a portable device. As silly as this sounds, I recently learned that my son's Sony PSP (hand-held game device) can wirelessly connect to the internet. Well, the device was nearby, and I thought "Hmmm, can I hook up to the forum with this?" I was amazed that within a few minutes of network setup, I was looking at the Edmunds website on the freakin PSP! That's when I saw your post about merc, and I posted that short reply, cause it takes time to enter text on that device without a keyboard. Anyway, I'm always curious about electronics, so I just had to see if I could connect to the internet that way, and it turns out that it can be done! (OK, Sony... endorsement complete... send check now.) Anyway, I would have to say that your knowledge about cars puts you at the "front of the class" here, (there are some others on the forum that I would say also have high credibility, IMO) and I, for one, may not always agree with everything you post, but most of the time you are extremely resourceful, and your posts are often factual with terrific insight that is beyond typical. Your opinions are usually well-substantiated as well. Now, I've said enough, before you get the wrong idea here. TagMan |
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High end cars, please...
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