Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
Mar 07, 2007 (3:48 pm)
Didn't know BMW was having this much trouble moving the metal!
There was definitely change in the wind, in the last couple years, first with the 7 and 5, then even the 3 starting last year. Cars that used to command nearly full MSRP became heavily discounted and subsidized. I have been repeatedly pointing out the unusual lease subsidies that have been happening, signifying underlying weakness. Glad to be vindicated by the late-as-usual professional analysts. Getting eggs in the face is the usual fate of being a prophet. I was talking about eminent homebuilder and lending industry collapse in Spring 2005; people thought I was an idiot at the Memorial Day luncheon that year. Same went with my predictions on the relative market potentials of Wagoner, Ford and Chrysler about a year ago, even as everyone piled on criticizing GM management.
The consumer market itself really speaks loud and clear, long before the talking heads get the memo. The BMW dealer offered to do everything possible to make a deal on the last day of the month. . . too bad I injured my hand (in an unrelated accident) shortly after the test drive a couple days before. The guy may not even work there anymore this month.
#24175 of 24726 Re: Breaking News [brightness04]
Mar 07, 2007 (4:13 pm)
Since you brought up Saab, what really scares me is that BMW's turbo-charging gammit is smelling like what Saab did in the 80's: extracting short term profit on existing engine instead of ploughing more money into massive new R&D. It would be a damn shame if BMW becomes non-viable as an independent going concern
That really doesn't seem likely. The only engines Saab has ever built that've been world class have gone into the Draken and Gripen. BMW is one of the premier engine builders in the world. In the case of the 335i, rather than let Infiniti and Lexus beat them with the G and IS, they used a turbo. There's no way they could've engineered a new engine with 300+ naturally aspirated hp in time for the '07 MY. Look at how long Audi and Mercedes continued to use their 2.8L and 3.2L engines when the Japanese had far more horsepower from their 6s. BMW is the last one to get lazy when it comes to new engines.
Mar 07, 2007 (5:11 pm)
You guys move fast from subject to subject!
Well, I just blew back in from Maine. I've missed a lot to say the least.
But the biggest blunder of all has to be Dewey. I never knew you disliked Audi's that much. You're a BMW driver and you want to call Audi's "unreliable"? Well, I just drove the snot out of the S8 without so much as a hiccup. Sorry Dewey that you feel this way, but all of my Audi's have been free of any problems.
BTW: the XKR will be here on the 25th. Can't wait.
#24177 of 24726 Re: Breaking News [lexusguy]
Mar 07, 2007 (7:21 pm)
Excellent post, LG.
Bimmer has been building the straight-6 motor for decades, yet they've never failed and with proper maintenance, have been known to exceed 200k miles with ease.
Just because the Japanese-brand models are coming out with hot V6's doesn't make BMW obsolete, as we all know the 3-Series still holds it own.
The 335 makes 300hp even, yet it's 4.75 0-60 makes it faster than the 306hp IS and GS. Only the new 300hp CTS is left to chance it.
#24178 of 24726 Re: Wow! [drfill]
Mar 07, 2007 (7:46 pm)
Didn't know BMW was having this much trouble moving the metal!
Having trouble moving cars and getting overly-aggressive to generate volume sales are two entirely different things...
#24179 of 24726 Re: Please [pat]
Mar 07, 2007 (7:51 pm)
Wouldn't you say the RS4 and M5 are high-end? I mean, $70K and $90K. Not many low-end car buyers can afford them!
IMO the RS4 is much better than the E60 M5. It's a bit of an E39 reincarnate. Supreme handling, gearbox, engine, style, interior... and even similar power from its (smaller) V8.
The only difference? It has the wrong configuration. Like Porsche, Audi has learned how to deal with this the hard way. It's harder to make the RS4 great to drive than an M5 or M3.
And this is coming from someone who desperately wants the new M3:
It's beautiful. I want an M3 convertible to replace the S4 and an S5 coupe as my next winter car. Ultimate performance fleet! And I'd be able to compare them.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
#24180 of 24726 Re: Breaking News [lexusguy]
Mar 07, 2007 (8:30 pm)
MB switched from Inline6 to V6 in the early 1990's in order to address the packaging issue.
#24181 of 24726 Re: Breaking News [blkhemi]
Mar 07, 2007 (8:35 pm)
Does every discussion have to turn into some kind of phallus length comparision? Read the previous posts again, it's on a very specific topic about packaging, as in engine space vs. crumple zone space. MB switched from I6 to V6 in the early 90's to address this very issue. BMW has been the lone hold-out. It becomes an issue when cylinder bore size makes the engine unwieldily long for modern sedan packaging efficiency.
BTW, the 200k boast is so ludicrous. If it's so easy, why isn't BMW offering 200k warranty? For what it's worth, both my 5 series developed engine oil jellying problem shortly after 100k miles.
Mar 07, 2007 (8:39 pm)
Vehicles based on A4 and 5 series platforms are all too small to be in HELC. A $200k V10 motorcycle is not HELC, regardless how well it handles. HELC is not about handling. Read the tagline of the forum.
Mar 07, 2007 (9:17 pm)
The two are one and the same if the cars are already built . . . well, actually if the production lines are already built to make that many cars. The BMW dealer lots are indeed much fuller nowadays than I remembered a decade ago. Back then, you order a BMW, it will come in a couple months. Nowdays, for most models, the salesperson can go to the back "warehouse" and pull up the car exactly to your requirement and in the color you like. How many cars are parked back there anyway? I certainly hope BMW's gamble on currency plays out okay: by the time the cars come back on lease returns, hopefully dollar is worth more in terms of Euros so that the accounting in Euros will look okay and the company can pay back debt. Having an aggressive competitor around certainly benefit the consumers. It's hard to beat some of the deals on BMW's nowadays: 10+% off with Euro delivery on the front end, and 70-75% residual at the back end, leaving only 15% MSRP to pay for two years of drivig pleasure; life is wonderful for us consumers.