Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#23806 of 24726 Re: January Sales [esf]
Feb 07, 2007 (8:13 pm)
Where did you see that about no BMW diesels?
I just searched "BMW diesels in the USA" and the first two things that came up were "BMW 5 series diesels by 2009" and BMW diesels by 2008."
Didn't see anything about no BMW diesels in the USA.
What BMW did do was reject an alliance with MB to use Bluetec diesel technology.
Trust me on this one: Since MB has Bluetec diesel here already, BMW will soon follow with its own comparable diesel system-hopefully married to its dynamite (according to the reviews) twin-turbo!
I will be regularly calling my dealer for him to get a twin-turbo demo for me to drive! Hope that will be sooner rather than later. How can the dealer be so out of touch with what's going on?
#23807 of 24726 Re: January Sales [hpowders]
Feb 07, 2007 (8:56 pm)
Just out of curiosity, what kind of turbo compressor does the current BMW diesel in Europe have? I'm assuming any BMW diesel engine in the 2.5-3L range would have to be turbo; otherwise, the engine would produce something like 70hp due to the way diesel fuel burn.
#23808 of 24726 Re: January Sales [brightness04]
Feb 07, 2007 (9:17 pm)
I am not too familiar with the technical thermodynamics at work here. I know that at low engine speeds the smaller turbo works and and the larger turbo functions at higher engine speeds.
#23809 of 24726 Re: I'm [brightness04]
Feb 07, 2007 (9:52 pm)
MB and Lexus have been battling each other out in the HELC field for over a decade and half. There have been many years of real life pricing history for anyone who have bothered to pay attention, or old enough to have done that.
That doesn't answer my question. You've been applying quantitative measurements and amounts, such as when you applied an 8-month time span for realizing high prices in a new model's life cycle, and when you applied a $20K dollar figure in your post to Dewey. What I'm asking is where you get your data from. As you say in this post there is a history for those that pay attention, and generally those that pay the closest attention have compiled statistics, such as Ward's or JD Powers and others. When you are stating specific numbers instead of general processes, then there ought to be a source for your data. I have no disagreement with the general processes at work here, but I don't know where you sourced your specific numbers from or what method or analysis you used to calculate or derive them... in order to support your quantitative claims.
#23810 of 24726 Re: BMW diesels in Europe
Feb 08, 2007 (4:54 am)
"Just out of curiosity, what kind of turbo compressor does the current BMW diesel in Europe have?"
530d BMW has two turbos, as hpowders says. I am not familiar with its mechanics nor with those of Series 7 BMW diesel.
My 2004 530d (manual, 6 gears) has one turbo, with the following characteristics:
3 liters, 6 cyl. with 4 valves per cyl., compression 17:1
5500 rpm, autolimited.
Max. velocity: 152.24 miles per hour, autolimited
Turbo compressor with variable geometry. It entries at 1000 rpm. No delay in the acceleration at this or any other moment when stepping down the pedal.
Common Rail 'DDE' injection, 4 injections per cyl per cycle, at a maximum of 1600 bares each, electronically controlled.
218 hp (recent models have more)
368.75 lb/foot max torque at 2000 rpm. Then the curve smoothly steps down until 4000 rpm. From there on it falls abruptly
Consume with my driving (after three years, 47850 miles, 76% sporty road and 24% quiet town):
36.3 miles per gallon in highway & mountain roads
19.99 miles per galon in town
30.7 miles per galon on the average
All measures are given in USA units.
And yes, you can drive sportively this car.
It is a pleasure driving and riding it everyday. It is my first diesel. It is exact at corners, quick, quiet and smooth. There is reason to believe that Lexus is not so well sold as BMW, Audis and MB in Europe because Lexus has no offer of diesel models. This indeed applies for LPS and HELC niches. Even whithin the LPS and HELC range, more than 50% of the cars sold now in Europe are diesels. In fact, the percentage is up to 70% across European countries.
It has been a few months since my last posting. But I have followed the discussions almost dayly .
Regards from Spain,
Feb 08, 2007 (5:16 am)
I was not the one who originally brought up the $20k figure. Please make attributions with care. Neither Ward nor JD Powers publish data on discounting. On the other hand, the world of information happens to be a little bigger than what Ward, JD Powers and other industry ad-dependent rags choose to publish. You can see real market price by looking at ads. Somewhere between what the manufacters advertise and what the dealers advertise is the market clearing price point; the manufacturer are making real life price suggestions all the time with their own ads and promotions. I had been assuming that you had been an observer of this market segment for at least a few years. I may have been mistaken in that assumption.
#23812 of 24726 Re: BMW diesels in Europe [jlbl]
Feb 08, 2007 (5:34 am)
Thank you so much for the wealth of information. I suspected as much that BMW must have gained some expertise making turbo engines all these years from making diesel cars in Europe. I also agree that in many ways, Lexus is almost like a US company, with a US product mix, trying to break into the European market; 76% annual grow is still decent though even if the base is as small as 25k-40k units.
Spain, ah, I could use some warm vacation time this time of the year
#23813 of 24726 Re: Quick off topic [tagman]
Feb 08, 2007 (6:13 am)
Are you talking about the '08 CTS that arrives this fall? That's a 300hp V6 with AWD available. I'd be concerned about torque out of that 6 cylinder. The new M3 will be a V8.
Cadillac is using that engine to go after the 335i. They're going to be using the Corvette small-block again to take on the M3. Possibly even the 7.0L Z06 version with 500hp! There will be no issues with torque out of that.
#23814 of 24726 Re: BMW diesels in Europe [jlbl]
Feb 08, 2007 (6:16 am)
Jose,that sounds like a great car. Thanks for reminding us of what we are missing diesel wise. We can only hope that someday we can have access to some of these fantastic diesels that you have.
I enjoyed your post and hope you will post more often.
Feb 08, 2007 (6:41 am)
thanks for chiming in, don't be a stranger