Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#2372 of 24723 a BMW specialist working at my local BMW dealership
Jul 02, 2003 (7:09 pm)
Your BMW may have high mileage on it, but I'm sure that there are high mileage vehicles in all car categories. My overall experience with BMW cars was very bad--as well as my sister and friends. We all have had many problems with them during and after the warranty expired. I had three BMW's; my sister had one; my college friend had two; my professor had one; and my boss had one. Base on talking with them, we all came to the conclusion that BMW's are great cars to drive, but terrible cars to own out of warranty. All of us had to pay too much extra money to fix the cars' numerous problems after the warranty ran out. I alone had to pay more than $16,000 to keep the three BMW's I had running. I kept my '94 525i until 1999; my '00 323ci until '03; and still got my '00 328ci. My wife and I drove a lot, so our cars ran out of warranty within two years.
The BMW specialist works at my local dealership. He's been with them 11 years. He told me that BMW's are made to drive fast, fun and sporty. But as far as keeping them out of warranty, he would not own one. He told me to always buy an extended warranty when I get a new BMW, because they usually have problems once they reach 60,000 miles. He said that's why he would never own one unless he was rich. Also, look in Consumer Reports Used Cars Guide. BMW's don't have good reliability scores. Most are average, and some are even below average.
This is not to start an arguement; just to tell you my experience with Bimmers.
#2374 of 24723 You've your experiences...
Jul 03, 2003 (8:21 am)
I have mine. I know too many people with high-mileage, reliable BMWs to put much stock in your "expert's" opinion. I also know too many Audi owners to believe that you'll see an improvement in long-term ownership costs by switching to that particular marque.
#2375 of 24723 Dwongswong, sorry to hear that you...
Jul 03, 2003 (11:13 am)
have had so much trouble with your Bimmers; however, your "expert" is full of it. Horror stories can be told about any make as well as success stories. However, to have some automotive "expert" (right) essentially claim that BMWs turn to junk at 60K miles is ludicrous. You need another source of advice.
#2376 of 24723 my ranking of ultra luxury sedans
Jul 03, 2003 (5:12 pm)
1)'04 Jaguar XJ Type
3)'04 Audi A8
5)Mercedes-Benz S Class
6)BMW 7 Series
Every one of these is a good car but this is the order in which I like them. I think Volvo needs to make an S100 to compete in this class. If you are interested in signing an internet petition for Volvo to make the S100 go to that chat under Future Vehicles/Volvo related. Also, the DTS (2006 Deville replacement) will be in this class so watch out Jaguar and Infiniti, this could be a class leader.
#2377 of 24723 Motortrend event (MB S-Class, BMW 7-Series, Audi A8L)
Jul 07, 2003 (6:36 pm)
Is anyone going to the MotorTrend exclusive test-drive? If you go to their website, and click on the link saying “exclusive luxury-sedan test drives”, and request an invitation (they have lots of space still), you can test drive the 2003 S500, 745Li, and 2004 Audi A8L. you get 30 min. in each car, and get hands-on-experience, for free. I believe that they have 2 separate drives in S. California (LA) in July, and 2 or 3 in New York. Just wanted to know if anyone’s going…
i basically agree with your list, libertycat, except slightly out of order:
1) '03 BMW 7-series
2) '03 Mercedes-Benz S-Class
3) '04 Audi A8L
4) Lexus LS430
i don't know... the new Jag XJ never attracted me, neither did the Infiniti Q45 or the VW Phaeton.
oh' by the way... i also saw a new Maybach on the road yesterday. driving away from my S.Cal dealership, and it was beautiful- some pewter metallic-type color. I believe that it was the short-wheel base model.
#2378 of 24723 Motor Trend event...
Jul 08, 2003 (3:24 am)
I'm curious to know what you didn't like about the Audi and what you did like about the 7-Series. They also had the uber-VW there too??
My personal list:
Audi A8 (a very close second, I mean very close)
Jaguar XJ, BMW 7-Series (tie)
I wouldn't want a LS430 even if it was given to me!
#2379 of 24723 just my opinion...
Jul 08, 2003 (2:56 pm)
I'm curious to know what you didn't like about the Audi and what you did like about the 7-Series. They also had the uber-VW there too??”
I was hoping that Audi would “drastically redesign” the flagship A8L. The front looks essentially the same (has the same general shape; same with the grille), the side looks… well not that exciting. As for the rear, I don’t know what to say. It just doesn’t look the same to me as when the 2000 S-Class came out and when the controversial 7-series came out in 2002.
Now… as for the 745Li…
I just think that overall, it has the best design. Outside- the front truly does look like an eagle, with the “eyebrows” in the headlamps. The wide kidney grille looks majestic. But for me, and most beautiful aspect of the vehicle is the side-profile view. The shape, and lines, and chrome trim (I particularly enjoy viewing the rear doors on the Li model, with that opera window…). Now, I must confess that the rear of the 7 is indeed strange, but sometimes, we have to accept different ideas, whether for the good or the bad.
Another part of the car that I love is the interior and performance. The inside looks like the interior of an airplane- the ways things are laid out… the only negative issue I have with the interior design is the position of the iDrive display, as I believe it reduces visibility. Ah yes… iDrive, another issue. I must say that even this system is more complicated than my MB S430’s COMMAND system. But, as we have already seen, Audi’s MMI technology (incorporated in the new A8L) is basically based on it (I don’t buy it when people deny that). Hey, this isn’t the first time a new idea was widely rejected- I remember clearly when Acura (I believe) introduced the moon-roof, a feature that the Germans didn’t seem to understand nor appreciate. Nowadays, almost every car, from Honda to Maybach, offers or features a moonroof. Now, enough of moonroof.
Now I am certainly not saying that MB builds bad cars like the S-Class. Of course, you really can’t get any better than a S (not counting Maybach, Rolls Royce, Bently…). A Mercedes will always be a Mercedes, and I really believe that is why Mercedes has such a high repeat-customer rate. Mercedes will always be first, and BMW, Audi, and Lexus will never pass MB.
As for the VW Phaeton, it will not be at the motortrend event; only the S500, 745Li, and A8L.
By the way, I went to my local VW dealership to view the new SUV, the Toureg, as well as any info regarding the phaeton. Apparently, he was new and had no idea about the Phaeton (but did know a lot about the Toureg). The Toureg was really beautiful, with striking resemblance to the Porsche Cayenne.
In my opinion, I don’t know who on earth would buy a VW at that high of a price. I may as well get a MB, BMW, Lexus, Infiniti, or Audi. The rear looks absolutely hideous in my opinion. I just don’t understand how are they going to sell this product?
My best friend just got a 2003 SL55 AMG and a 2003 S500 4Matic together! He loves them, and is currently at a MB-hosted private Golf-event for patrons who purchase 2-or-more MB’s at one time. He called during the party and said that there was an Iranian doctor who bought 8 MB’s all at once! (gee, even in this economy!)
merc1- now I would like to know your opinion on the new Audi A8L (you say very close to the S-Class), and why you included the Jag and the Infiniti Q45 (i really don't understand the design team of the XJ, and i figure at the same price, you can get a much better car; LS430)
P.S.- you guys should check out this article on cnn.com/money about reliability (yes, the Japanese are still the best when it comes to reliability, I guess:
Jul 08, 2003 (6:36 pm)
Car and Driver did not speak all that highly of the new A8. In fact much of their story was negative. While they were at it they trashed the styling of the old A8 (as an appliance on wheels; by the way I thought the old car was a good lookin car so I'm not on the same page as these guys) and made sure everyone knew about Audi's moribund sales of the A8. They said the looks were improved over the old design but never said they were good - unless I missed it.
Personally - the A8's new style has grown on me though I'm not crazy about its' rear. But from the side and front it's a great looking car.
Now you know how I feel about these mags but I do take the individual car write-ups much more seriously. The only disconcerting thing I took from the story was that the car had a rough harsh ride - something no high end lux family car should have.
As for looks - they also reported on the BMW 5 series and thought the new design was somewhere between bold and beautiful. Amazing. I'm not even in the same chapter as these people - let alone on the same page. Bangle is a one man wrecking crew. I hope he doesn't wreck the 330CCI. That's the one BMW I really like and would consider buying - rather seriously.
Lastly - it was clear they were looking for negatives on the A8 and only positives on the 5 series. These guys are quite biased in my opinion.