High End Luxury Cars

24699 messages, Last post on Nov 30, 2009 at 6:41 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Outline

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#23543 of 24699 Re: Mercedes-Benz USA Records Best January Sales Ever [brightness04] by blckislandguy Feb 01, 2007 (7:50 pm)
Replying to: brightness04 (Feb 01, 2007 7:33 pm) Brightness, I'm no fan of MB (actually, I like the cars but don't think much of the typical MB owner) but the data that Tagman presented are impressive. Moreover, I see as a huge plus not a negative that some of MB "sales" are actually leases wherein the customer has to come back in 24 to 36 months. Yes, there is as you say a treadmill. But for the driver, not the manufacturer. The manufacturer designed it this way and it benefits them. Now if the leases are hugely factory subsidized ( you didn't give us any proof) putting customers in leases isn't an unalloyed blessing but it is a good step to getting them back in the door in 24 months. Let's not forget that the goal of a successful business is to have repeat customers, not necessarily happy or even satisfied customers. Razors and razor blades, construction equipment and replacement parts, and the illegal drug business are all good examples of the benefits that accrue to the business when the customer is forced to return time and time again. Incidentally, the lack of repeat sales is in a nutshell is why airlines are broke and consumer electronics chains come and go. Replies to this message: brightness04 (Feb 01, 2007 8:04 pm) dhamilton (Feb 01, 2007 9:27 pm) killerbunny (Feb 02, 2007 6:16 am) dewey (Feb 02, 2007 10:52 am)
#23544 of 24699 Re: You're right! [drfill] by tagman Feb 01, 2007 (8:01 pm)
Replying to: drfill (Feb 01, 2007 7:16 pm) It should brake better. Solution: Make it as slow as the Mercedes, then you wouldn't need so much braking force. C,mon Doc. You're throwing out sarcasm when you have no need. You've got yourself an overall decent review, with respectable 0-60 times, but pitiful braking. OK... it is what it is. Now, all of a sudden the Mercedes is slow? The solution is better brakes for the LS, it's that simple. TagMan
#23545 of 24699 Re: Mercedes-Benz USA Records Best January Sales Ever [blckislandguy] by brightness04 Feb 01, 2007 (8:04 pm)
Replying to: blckislandguy (Feb 01, 2007 7:50 pm) I absolutely agree with you that creating repeating customer is a great way to success, assuming the cost of acquiring such customers is negligible. There is really no magic in convincing customers to lease instead of buying: the manufacturer has to offer better deals than what an honest bank in the business of making money is willing to offer. In other words, the "sale" becomes diluted by financial subsidies. A couple years ago, GM and Ford were experiencing dramatic sales increases when they offered enormous financial subsidies. Look at where they are now. IMHO, therein lies the danger with financial engineering goosing sales numbers in the short term. The consumer is not the only way stepping onto the treadmill when the mfr engages in financial engineering: in order to close the book 24-36 months from today, the price gap between actual auction value of returned vehicles and "residual" will have to be written down, and that affects the company bottom line. In order to absorb that hit, more "sales" will have to be written up at that time. Replies to this message: dhamilton (Feb 01, 2007 9:27 pm)
#23546 of 24699 Tag by drfill Feb 01, 2007 (8:19 pm)
As long as you misuse the word "decent", my response is accurate and warranted. The words "decent", or "nice" or "fair" never came up in the review. The LS460L is not a "decent" car. You're better than that, Tag. DrFill Replies to this message: tagman (Feb 01, 2007 8:56 pm)
#23547 of 24699 Re: Tag [drfill] by tagman Feb 01, 2007 (8:56 pm)
Replying to: drfill (Feb 01, 2007 8:19 pm) Doc, Why the semantics? According to the dictionary decent means respectable, fair, and other positive things as well. There is nothing wrong with the word I chose. If it makes you feel better, I have no problem whatsoever with acknowledging that the review was a "nice" one, because for the most part it was. I think most reviews, when taken collectively, have been "nice" about the LS. It is a fine car. I have my personal criticisms about it, and throughout the many reviews we have heard other's criticisms... some similar and some different. As I have always said, the concensus is what I go by when paying attention to reviews, because they are all unique in certain ways, but ultimately a clearer picture comes through about the car, and that's what counts, IMO. Beyond the reviews, my own opinion is what counts most to me, of course, but we are talking about a concensus from the many reviews here, and my opinion has nothing to do with that. Based upon reviews so far, the LS is clearly at this point a quiet, luxurious, quick, and comfortable cruiser that isolates the driver from the road, as opposed to connecting the driver to the road. This last item is not necessarily bad, just not my preference. Some of the car sounds great, while some not so great, such as brakes, of course. But, please don't get upset with my choice of words, for goodness sakes, when I am really being fair. You know I will not get out the trumpets for an LS, but I will give it any objective credit it deserves when it becomes quite certain that it is due. And, I expect you to be fair also, Doc. I hope that is good enough for you, cause it's the best you're gonna get. TagMan
#23548 of 24699 Re: Mercedes-Benz USA Records Best January Sales Ever [brightness04] by dhamilton Feb 01, 2007 (9:27 pm)
Replying to: brightness04 (Feb 01, 2007 8:04 pm) A report form the Houston auto show LF-A. A looker as reported by Merc. Jury still out on if it will in fact have sporting aspirations. But if looks are any indication IS-F. is not, my God what is that thing they attached to the front, a jaws of life to better remove the driver in case of boredom? Probably fast, but see above. Camaro. is very sharp. XKR. Wow, like week in the knees, wow. TT. very sleek, and modern with a great interior. Why people look at the SC over this is beyond me. Oh, that's right the SC is a juggernaut that nobody knows about. Silly me. Aura. Quite a job they did on this one. Very surprised. S80. Same thing, one of the best new designs re. four door sedans. I don't know about the dynamics but, if it's un- Volvo like it could be a contender. Audi. In general, everything from Audi sucked because simply put, they aren't a major player here so they don't matter. ROFLMFAO
#23549 of 24699 Re: Mercedes-Benz USA Records Best January Sales Ever [tagman] by merc1 Feb 01, 2007 (9:49 pm)
Replying to: tagman (Feb 01, 2007 3:37 pm) So, where is the "doom" for Mercedes that we heard some speak of? Well to be fair most that used to preach about that don't post anymore, but to answer your question...it has never, ever appeared. It was all hype and nonsense to begin with. I've said from day one that Mercedes (and other European brands) have a reliability problem, but as the sales numbers continue to prove, not everyone worships reliablity surveys. For Mercedes, Land Rover, VW and at one time BMW and Audi too, to be able to continue to sell cars and actually increase sales says one of two things; 1) either their reliability isn't as bad as the survey worshipers would have you to believe, or 2) the stars of the reliability surveys aren't all that to begin with. If Toyota for a minute lost their reliability crown they'd be finished. Lexus not as much so, but it is still one of their primary building blocks. M
#23550 of 24699 Re: Sorry to trump you, Tag [drfill] by merc1 Feb 01, 2007 (9:51 pm)
Replying to: drfill (Feb 01, 2007 4:11 pm) Amazing that you got that from that article. At no point did they even come close to saying that the LS460L was bad anything. They're still harping about long stopping distances and what not, that I did see. The review was lukewarm at best. Must be tough to have to hang your hat on an Edmunds review when C&D put the car in the doghouse. M
#23551 of 24699 Re: Trump?... What trump? [drfill] by merc1 Feb 01, 2007 (9:54 pm)
Replying to: drfill (Feb 01, 2007 7:01 pm) Faster than the S550 and 750i. In one test, yet Edmunds numbers are different from just about every other magazine in the country. Really convincing. Everything else you've mentioned has been said before, this Edmunds review didn't say anything that we hadn't heard before. You're down to listing "Might get better braking with Touring Pkg" as something to be boast about. Desperate. Might smite. Again, why can't the car produce a decent stopping distance? It is just too funny that you've now become and Edmunds groupie while throwing away Car and Driver. Classic case of picking and choosing, being selective, etc. etc. of who's reviews to use. The old LS didn't have that problem did it? M
#23552 of 24699 Isn't this the pot calling a pot a pot! by drfill Feb 01, 2007 (11:48 pm)
No matter how many tests the LS won in C&d, you wouldn't give the LS any respect because of price, and it looked like this, and it handled like that. No matter what it did, it was never enough. Now the site you use daily has no credibility, and now C&D is the gospel? Or just when things go your way, for once? You are reduced to hanging your hat on stopping distances to ridicule the LS, as this site can't find any other weaknesses. And they clearly stated you can improve stopping distances with a performance pkg. Good to see you use this site everyday, but don't respect it's views or reviews. Very revealing. This site seems to have no problem putting the LS on par with the S or 7 based on merit, not price. That it's a better value is a given. Deal with it. Count me a one of the millions who respect Edmunds judgement. Sorry to hear you have no respect for Edmunds.com. DrFill Replies to this message: merc1 (Feb 02, 2007 12:44 am) houdini1 (Feb 02, 2007 6:26 am) designman (Feb 02, 2007 7:31 am) and 29 more... merc1 (Feb 02, 2007 8:02 am)