Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
Jan 24, 2007 (6:55 pm)
Audi market share in HELC is not just small; it's next to non-existent. You can find the most recent monthly and annual sales number:
Lexus LS460/430 sold 3865 in December, 26k in 2005;
MB S class 2987 in December, 16k in 2005, 31k in 2006;
BMW 7 series over 2k in November, 18k in 2005;
Audi A8? 323 in Dec, 557 in Nov, about 5k for both 05/06
Audi is is a minuscule player in HELC.
Their "collosal sales in Europe" is built on very plebian cars like A3 and A4, which has nothing to do with HELC or even debatable luxury. Globally, A4 and A6 compete with cars like Toyota Crown, not Lexus. The majority of A8 sold in Europe have V6 engines, and have MSRP around $50k. That would disqualify A8 itself in HELC discussion.
The REAL truth is that Audi is a global success and is just now in the early stages of what is a gigantic ascention in this U.S. market.
That may have been the case back in 1994. Audi/VW has just finished another cycle here in the US. It will take a few years before another generation of suckers are born and unware of just how unreliable their cars are. If Audi were promising in the US, VW would not have been an acquisition target by a much smaller player like Porsche in a reverse take-over.
#23178 of 24723 Re: Quote From The Car Connection [hpowders]
Jan 24, 2007 (7:01 pm)
To me, selling twice as many cars WORLDWIDE is pretty impressive.
Depending on what's being sold. In most parts of the world, Audi live by A4 and A6 sales. In these same markets, the direct competitor to A4 and A6 is Toyota Crown, not any Lexus. Sure, Toyota also sells some ultra luxury cars under its own brand, like Toyota Century, priced around $200k+. Of course, Toyota has huge sales volume worldwide. Shall we then talk about what a great HELC brand Toyota is?? Their Landcruiser is close to $60k for what it's worth. I sure don't hope so. Let's focus on US market, which we are all familiar with. In other markets, the same brands may well have very different market positions and identities.
Jan 24, 2007 (7:14 pm)
Oh and by the way, when China(not if) gets their way, they will be the number one market in the world by 2010/11, and what is the number one selling HELM in that country. Yes, it's true, the very second-rate, non-worthy(as you'd put it) Audi A8.
Okay, let's put some numbers into perspective. How many A8's does that supposed #1 in China amount to? less than 2000 cars in a year. Lexus, MB and BMW each sell that many or more LS, S and 7 in the US in a month. When China market does become #1, they may well have different preferences. At present (and the recent past), many of these A8's are shipped to bureacrats there as bribes for running Audi factories. They just get parked there. I was on a business trip there back in 2005, and stayed in a hotel in Beijing for a couple weeks. One A8 (out of only 1800 or so imported to that whole country that year) literally sat in the same spot in the city council courtyard nearby that whole time without ever moving. It did not even have a license plate, so couldn't be driven even if someone tried.
#23180 of 24723 Re: Dewey [drfill]
Jan 24, 2007 (7:55 pm)
That of the cherished manual tranny, which will have to pried from my cold, dead hand.
Oh....and now would be a good time to sell, since I have bashed the IS350 consistently for not offering a stick. Same goes for the IS-F. Not luvin' it, with the 10th-gradeer body kit. Not exactly tasteful.
So let me get this straight now. Your favorite car company does not offer manual trannies while at the same time you love manual trannies so much that you cant live without one?
Sounds like a contradiction, dont you think?
I've come to the conclusion that you like Lexus as a business/marketing case study. You like their sales numbers, their margins, their customer services and last but not least their Red Bow Christmas Promotions. You like everything about Lexus except their cars.
Am I correct?
#23181 of 24723 Re: Well, [brightness04]
Jan 24, 2007 (8:00 pm)
One A8 (out of only 1800 or so imported to that whole country that year)
Where on earth did you get Mainland China Audi A8 sales stats from? Or is this A8 figure of yours just a pie in the sky guess?
A8s driven mainly by bureaucrats in China?
I myself was in China more then a few times these past few years (my wife is Chinese) and I can assure you Audis (including the A8) in China are driven by a diverse affluent group of drivers beyond just bureacrats.
You claim that many A8s are given as bribes to conniving bureaucrats for running Audi factories? Interesting allegations indeed? Many executives here in North America do not view their company cars as bribes. Instead they view them as being earned.
Jan 24, 2007 (8:19 pm)
So some of you are up in arms of Audi's success. Who gives a hoot.
The truth of the matter is that sales of a car is only fraction of why a car is in existence in the first place.
While yes, the A8 sells in limited quantities here in the States, but I dare anyone to compare it's build quality and exemplary fit/finish and attention to detail to ANY car in it's class, including the ex-GM grade plastics of the LS460.
As I've went back into the archives of this very thread, about every three months, the same rowdy circle of posters question or examine Audi as a company, and conversely, knows little about the company and what makes Audi's what they are.
Sales? Did we post what the LX470 sales numbers are? I don't remember seeing what those embarrassing figures were over a lowly old Cadillac Escalade, which sells for, on average, $3-5k more. How's that new from the ground up ES350 doing? Not to hot.
And someone mentioned the A6 is a dud. I don't remember a car that is the best selling luxury in the world a dud. That is not the United States, China, or Europe, but all of them and the 6 continents that they reside on.
You can't fault Audi for offering the A4 with a 4cyl at $28k all the way up to the RS4 with the only V8 in it's class at $70k, oh and these are sold out for 3 years, along with the super-cool S8. I bet you Lexus won't attempt that pricing strategy for 20 years as that is not in agreement with their bargain-basement pricing.
And now to the relevant A8. What's the only car on the road that has not been "Bangle-ized" in it's class? The A8. What other car offers std. AWD(and yes it matters to we New Yawkas, the biggest A8 area)? The A8. What car of current vintage boasts the most awards given by any publication? The A8. And the list goes on.
Sales of a car does not determine how the car really is. Just like a prominent family last name doesn't determine the character of the person. Just as the value of a home does not determine it's desireability..
For it to be solely based on sales alone we wouldn't have such greats as:
Land Rover Range Rover(shadowed by Escalade and GL)
All Aston Martin
and coincedently, the LX470.
#23184 of 24723 Re: Doc [brightness04]
Jan 24, 2007 (8:27 pm)
You say they only make money on "plebian" cars like the A3 and A4.
At last check, it's only the gluttony of Americans that like expansive and large cars. Most other countries, especially tight-ridden Asia, have nothing BUT small cars, including the premium cars.
So by that admission, the Yaris and Corolla are the only reason for the existance of Toyota? Your points are getting lesser in validation.
As far as the Porsche takeover, it won't happen. And what does Audi being promising the US and the takeover have to do with one another?
BTW: It's very well known that Porsche wants Audi, not VW, to help with platform and powertrain engineering because the Toyota engineers that toured and courted Porsches plants were deemed "insufficient".
Jan 24, 2007 (8:32 pm)
Blkhemi. And a lot nicer than I can be to boot.
Brightness, if your going to say that the majority of A8 sales in Europe are V6 and 50k, it would be a good idea to allow for the exchange rate. But maybe that doesn't matter over here?
Who would be stupid enough to try to bribe someone with something that nobody wants? That is the lamest story I've ever heard in my life.
Let me get this strait. You guys are upset because Audi said that they want to come after Lexus in sales? So, you just make up stories about what you saw in anther country that's so irrelevant, you went for a visit? This is hilarious.
Did the insane asylums throw an in house tent sale on gate keys?
#23186 of 24723 Re: Doc [blkhemi]
Jan 24, 2007 (8:44 pm)
Wow, what a riot. With the cars you own, you accuse Americans of being gluttons?