Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#22613 of 24726 Re: The BMW X6 [hpowders]
Dec 29, 2006 (7:39 am)
The BMW diesel offerings sometime next year could prove to be exciting. I will test drive any or all of them as they come out probably late in 2007. Perhaps the Mercedes Benz Bluetec too. Never drove any kind of diesel before.
I love diesels myself but reality always gets in the way of my love.
The reality is this:
Diesel prices are not what they used to be. In the 80s when my father bought his 83 MB300D the price of diesel was sold at a discount. Today's premium diesel pump prices defeats the primary purpose of diesels which is cost savings.
The 2.2 L Honda Accord lack of urea injection may make it a modest success. BUT the urea injection of larger diesel displacement engines that are offered by MB and will soon be offered byBMW and Audi will be no success. Why? Just imagine the thousands of diesel owners confronted with routine urea low level warning signals? Many owners with a busy schedule will view such routine visits as a hindrance. And just imagine overworked owners who have no time to get their urea topped up? These overworked owners will end up being stalled somewhere on a roadside.
Do you honestly think such owners will be happy with such a diesel vehicle? Their negative opinions will definitely be expressed in CR/JD Power and affect the future sales of diesels.
I anticipate that my next car will be a hybrid. As hybrids improve diesels will become a relic of the past.
#22614 of 24726 The X6 Edmunds HELC Forum Consensus
Dec 29, 2006 (7:51 am)
At least all us forum members are united in our disgust about the new BMW X6? When was the last time all HELC/HELM forum members were so united before? Never!
What is the point of such a senseless and ugly vehicle?
It appears the marketing volks at BMW did their homework. They know the trends and the trends dictated niche segmentation and mass customization of automobiles. Every single demographic/lifestyle group will be served with some kind of highly customized crossover/vehicle. Apparently BMW is not the only automaker that is trying to follow this trend.
I call such marketing "Fluff over Substance", but that is just my opinion.
#22615 of 24726 Re: The X6 Edmunds HELC Forum Consensus [dewey]
Dec 29, 2006 (8:36 am)
"Fluff over Substance"
Yeah, but sadly, it seems to work every time it's tried.
We'd go way, way OT if I listed the 10-20 automotive trends that have appeared over the past decade or so that illustrate your phrase, so I won't. But they've all sold like hotcakes.
H.L. Mencken said it best: "No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public."
#22616 of 24726 Re: The BMW X6 [dewey]
Dec 29, 2006 (10:21 am)
Well, I haven't read any complaints about the new diesels in the europress, but if as you say, diesels will create some problems for us over here, I would take a pass and look at conventional BMW's. You already know what I have my eye on.
I'm pretty sure there will be quite a premium added to the BMW diesel vehicles' prices.
I will of course be reading all diesel reviews and watching for potential problems as the reviews come out over here. I'm not going to lease a vehicle that will complicate my life.
I can just imagine trying to search through 100 sub-menus with iDrive to attempt to fix a defective low urea warning light! LOL!!
#22617 of 24726 Re: The X6 Edmunds HELC Forum Consensus [dewey]
Dec 29, 2006 (10:27 am)
I only wish BMW would get out of the SUV business.
None of those beasts do justice to the proud "Ultimate Driving Machine" motto.
#22618 of 24726 Re: BMW X6 [merc1]
Dec 29, 2006 (1:48 pm)
It is either that or some type of R-Class competitor, which I doubt.
Their RFK R-class fighter is supposed to be something else. I wonder if, after the market reception to the R-class, BMW will cancel that entirely.
#22619 of 24726 Re: The X6 Edmunds HELC Forum Consensus [hpowders]
Dec 29, 2006 (1:51 pm)
None of those beasts do justice to the proud "Ultimate Driving Machine" motto.
I think the only SUV that could really be called an "ultimate driving machine" would be if the M division were allowed to go to town with the X3.
#22620 of 24726 Re: The X6 Edmunds HELC Forum Consensus [lexusguy]
Dec 29, 2006 (2:20 pm)
On the subject of the X3 I notice you've come over to the dark side recently. Perhaps no one else on this thread realizes it. I think you should make a formal announcement here.
#22621 of 24726 Re: The X6 Edmunds HELC Forum Consensus [lexusguy]
Dec 29, 2006 (3:05 pm)
I've driven those BMW SUV's. You feel every road imperfection. Very jolting. Instead of the X3, folks should go with a 3-series wagon. That would be the intelligent choice, but I know, it's conservative and nerdy-looking.
The X3 has a cheap interior. The X5 has a high-end interior with the nicest BMW wood, but you also feel every bump. Bad on the sciatica.
Hey BMW. Give us more twin-turbo and diesel CARS!!!
At the airport yesterday, I had a choice of 4 parking spaces-each between 2 skyscrapers. Doesn't anybody drive cars anymore?
Has the world gone mad?
#22622 of 24726 Re: BMW lease offers [blckislandguy]
Dec 29, 2006 (3:24 pm)
I have been away for a while. The "break-even point" was measured in regard to the cost per mile:
If a car is leased with a capitalization of 92% of MSRP, with a 27-mo residual of 74%, then the leaser is paying (92-74=) 18% MSRP for 27mo/27kmiles. Assuming no interest subsidy at all. That is 1.5mo(1.5kmiles) for every 1% of MSRP in car payment. To reach that cost per month and per mile, someone who actually bought the car at 92% of MSRP has to keep the car for at least (92 * 1.5) = 138k miles! That's assuming the enjoyment of every mile is the same; i.e. the car is no looser for the 138,000th mile than the first mile. That's obviously not the case. There is no free warranty and wear item coverage after the first 50k miles.
As to your argument about buying lease returns. Well, like I said, used cars are a different merchandise. There are significant reliability issues and cost of maintenance after the first 50k miles. Just for the sake of argument, let's take a look at the numbers. If a person is to drop the car after 100k miles, there are 73k miles remaining between 27k mile lease end and the 100k mile end of meaningful service life. Even assuming all miles are equal among those 100k miles (which they obviously are not; new car miles are more enjoyable and have maintenance covered, unlike old car miles after the first 50k), how much should you pay for the remaining 73k, at most, given that a new car can be had for 27k miles at 18% MSRP? Using the same 1.5k miles per 1% of MSRP, that translates to no more than (73k / 1.5) = 48% So you should not pay more than 48% of MSRP for the car when it is a lease return after 27k miles. How many Certified Preowned BMW's with 27k miles are priced below 48% of its original MSRP?
Between these two sale events, if carried out rationally, 18% + 48% = 66%; that's how much BMW should really be collecting for the life-time value of the car, at most, given that it's willing to give away the prime cut first 27k miles for 18% of MSRP. Goes to show you how ludicrous the MSRP is, and why leasing is essential if you want to get past that 30+% BS.