Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#22549 of 24723 Re: The C&D Comparo [hpowders]
Dec 27, 2006 (4:16 am)
What about the other vehicles in these comparos? Aren't pre-production models supplied for these tests all the time?
Well not if they're already on the market, which in fairness the Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and Jaguar all have been for some time now.
I'd read in one of these C&D comparos in which Lexus asked for the comparo. I believe it was the first comparo of the original LS400 back in 1989-1990 and that car was a pre-production prototype also. It won.
What I don't get is why Lexus would supply a car that was defective in the first place since they're known for such detail and quality. I dunno, maybe the brakes and door seals failed after C&D thrashed the car. Pre-product status though has nothing to do with the trunk space and handling though so it isn't like it would have won if it were a production model.
#22550 of 24723 Re: The Deal of the Century! [houdini1]
Dec 27, 2006 (4:21 am)
I also don't know the technical aspects of how my computer works...but I know IF it is working or not. Don't try to hang your hat on a statement I made about not knowing how an airbag is set off, that's REALLY silly.
Poor analogy because you use your computer everyday. You don't use airbags but maybe once or twice in your life, never preferably.
Problem is that you don't know how an airbag works and you seem to think that because an insurance company says a car has been totalled that airbags should have gone off. You couldn't be more oblivious to the facts if you wanted too. Its amazes me how one can say they don't know how something works and then say it is defective. Yep your opinion, but it isn't based on anything other than a silly bias. There isn't a fact within a 1000 miles of your "opinion".
#22551 of 24723 Re: The Pre-Production Question [cyclone4]
Dec 27, 2006 (4:24 am)
I don't think that Lexus was overly concerned that it was a pre-production model.
They should have been though, at least enough to check the car out and made sure it was truly represenative of what customers would be getting. If you notice these comparos seem to come around at C&D when a new or refreshed LS hits the scene.
#22552 of 24723 Re: The Pre-Production Question [reality2]
Dec 27, 2006 (4:30 am)
Excellent points and the outcome could have indeed been different if they had tested a current A8L.
I raised this same point back in Dec of 2003 when this same comparo was done with all 2004 model year cars, except the S430 which was a 2003. C&D complained about the S430's 5-speed transmission, but they noted the 2004 model had the 7-speed (which is praised worldwide) and that would have made some difference, just like the case of the 2006 A8L in a feild of 2007 cars. I was told that the fact the S430 was a 2003 model didn't make a difference, it wouldn't have won anyway. I agree, it wouldn't have, but maybe it wouldn't have been last either. Fast foward to this comparo and now these minor details make all the difference in the world. The LS wasn't production, like a production model would have helped it go from the last to first.
No conspiracies here.
#22553 of 24723 Re: The C&D Comparo [dewey]
Dec 27, 2006 (4:32 am)
That cant be? Impossible! That M5 must have been a pre-productiong model. And if it wasn't the case then that M5 may not have been a representative model. ANd if that is not the case then the C & D editorials' objectivity must have been tarnished somehow by MB.
That and the fact that MB has upped their payments to C&D.
#22554 of 24723 Re: The Pre-Production Question [cyclone4]
Dec 27, 2006 (4:41 am)
No one denying that the S550 or BMW are better handling than the LS460.
One thing though, we know the BMW is a handler and it placed ahead of the LS based on that, if you want to go with that, its ok by me. The S550 on the other hand didn't win out over the LS based on just handling like and others make it seem. The S does like I've said all along provide the same ride as the LS with better handling and that is what put it over. It isn't if you're being short changed on ride comfort or comfort in general with the S as you would in say the BMW for its superior handling. The fact that the LS didn't have a huge price advantage this time around probably hurt it too. It wasn't just a simple case of better handling by a long shot.
Dec 27, 2006 (4:42 am)
I don't see any "conspiracy" in C&Ds test. But one should look at other comparo's also as they come out. You can bet within under 6 months, Automobile, Motor Trend & Road & Track will do comparison tests of all of these cars also.
The LS460 in C&Ds testing definately was flawed as both Motor Trend's and Road & Track's testing has shows similar braking, slalom, and skidpad numbers as it's competitors. C&D's Ls460 also performed poorly on the skidpad, yet for COTY testing the LS460 and S500 tested pretty evenly in braking, skidpad, and slalom.
One must also look at the LS460 placing in last place and see just how good luxury cars and cars in general have gotten from just a few short years ago. It will be interesting to see what Infiniti throws out with the next Q45.
Also, pricing played a big role in the LS's ranking, I think more than anything. I think if the same LS460 were priced in the $70K range instead of the as tested $93K MSRP it would have been number 2 or 3. It will take a while for it to sink in that a LS460 can now cost almost $100K. the Value card was one of the big reasons the LS always came out on top or near the top in comparo's.
#22556 of 24723 Re: The Pre-Production Question [cyclone4]
Dec 27, 2006 (4:48 am)
Like you, I do NOT want to feel the cracks and bumps on the road surface. I would venture to guess that the great majority of American drivers have the same thinking about what is a pleasant driving experience as we do.
You're telling me you're going to feel every crack and bump in the road driving a S550? If Gary is going overboard on brakes you seem to be doing the same here regarding (if you're talking about) the S550. The BMW? Yes it does have firmer ride as does the Audi, but the S550 rides better than either of them.
I've read many times here from Lexus owners that if you can have it all why not. By that same token, a car that rides as good or better (Consumer reports on the previous S vs. the LS430) while handling better should be the obvious choice shouldn't it? That is if how a car ride and drives is so important. S-Class drivers have never been punished in the ride department. Never.
I too of course think the brake issue was just a pre-production thing. Both MT and R&T have tested the SWB LS460 and got much better braking numbers. C&D drove pre-production LS460s twice, in their first drive report and in this comparo so.....they've never been able to get good braking numbers.
#22557 of 24723 Re: Performance, Excitement and the Parent of Lexus [dewey]
Dec 27, 2006 (4:51 am)
The only Toyota I'd ever buy would be a Supra. If that is a hint as what it might look like then I'll forever be Toyotaless.
#22558 of 24723 Re: Performance, Excitement and the Parent of Lexus [merc1]
Dec 27, 2006 (5:20 am)
"If that is a hint as what it might look like then I'll forever be Toyotaless."
Oh No, Toyota's gonna go bankrupt!