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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24697 messages, Last post on Nov 28, 2009 at 3:09 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Replying to: garyh1 (Dec 16, 2006 11:01 pm) I'll post once more in response to a great post by you. I asked both questions of lease vs buy to two local MB dealers and my local Lexus guy. The answer was 90-95% lease vs buy on the S-class (the dealers tell and encourage the customers to lease because it's a better deal and they want the renrewal 3 years later) and 80-20 on the LS (they also want that renewal but Lexus let's the dealers subsidize leases due to the higher bandwidth of dealer invoice and MSRP. So if you live in a competitive dealer area with a less hot car you will be a lot luckier than those of us who don't. I'm going to have to deposit this car 60 days before lease end just to get one so forget about any negotiation here.) But there have been more people buying the LS460L than normal in lease/buy ratios because Lexus is being conservative on the LS 460L lease right now. Everytime I run numbers on the highest end lux cars buying 3 years after leasing is as good a deal or better than buying up front and that's assuming you buy at the lease deal price. Many buy many thousands lower, particularly on the German cars because the market hasn't supported lease buy out residuals. It's why many banks exited the lease car business because they got killed on such residuals. Anyone buying upfront is missing the better business deal in my view and it's amazing to me that folks on the board can't see thru or accept lease marketing of cars. In summary from my viewpoint there is a big difference between the German approach and the Lexus pproach. The Germans want control and discount thru leases thus the low amount of invoice to MSRP. Lexus goes the other way and lets the dealer have control thus the higher variance in MSRP and invoice both in absolute dollars and percentage of MSRP, the latter is where the differences with the Germans are very large. A for the C&D review it's also amazing here that people think Lexus buyers reject it for any reason other than logic and common sense. The LS430 would have beaten the LS460 by a light year according to them and you'd need a Fred Flintstone breaking system to stop the car. Sure. As I stated earlier if I missed a cross check on checks and balances of earlier results like that in finance (and you in law for the same reason) I'd be fired on the spot. As for me I'm long done with the infighting and team approach. I'll never post in that regard again.
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Replying to: tagman (Dec 14, 2006 8:51 pm) Last time I checked, my Vette Z06 was rated as having 49/51 weight transferance. The Porsche's 38/62 split is fine good for planting power to the ground, which it does an admirable job, especially in Carrera 4 models, but the nose does tend to wander a bit during some high-speed maneuvers, something that has plagued 911's for quite sometime. This, however, isn't noticed by most drivers as most cars don't ever see a track. Porsche knows this, and they've been talking quite sometime about doing something about it. They may very well take the 911 mid-engined, as the rear seats are basically useless, but I do believe that front-engine is not completely out of the equation. |
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Replying to: brightness04 (Dec 15, 2006 10:02 pm) First, Porsche loves being a small car company. They thrive on it. That explains the hesitance of the Cayenne to market and the even longer hesitance for a performance sedan. In reality, Porsche wants to share engineering, not production volume, with VW/Audi. They are actually under way as we speak on developing a Porsche-exclusive DSG box. Much speculation as aroused over Porsche courting Audi to help with the Panamerica performance sedan and it's drive/suspension systems. Lastly, Audi is no more "interwined" with VW as Lexus is with Toyota as MB is with Chrysler. As for parts bins and platforms are concerned, the only tie in the system now is the A4. And with it's major RWD '08 redo, that will be null and void. Yes the Phaeton is loosely based on A8, but it's all steel and only shares it's powertrain. And again, the '08 A8 will erase all of that. As stable a company Porsche is, why would they take on VW's many problems? Labour, quality messes, lawsuits and much else comes with it's territory, something that is very foreign to Porsche. They just want a little help on the development front, and who any better than Audi to help? |
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Replying to: garyh1 (Dec 16, 2006 11:01 pm) What I was merely stating on the LS460's plastics is that they do in fact feel cheaper than that of the LS430's. I can't be sure if it's the graining technique in which they applied to the surfaces of the plastics, but it does not look substainial, especially if you're faced with a fully loaded LS460L example of $94k. Will most LS buyers care about this? Heck no, but from my observation, they could've taken a better approach on the IP. But Lexus being Lexus, I'm sure this will disappear next year as they don't let loose tags hang for long.
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Replying to: ljflx (Dec 17, 2006 7:58 am) Gary's prayers have finally been answered and the financial savior of Edmunds has been resurrected to bless us with his appearance today. So Ljflx I hope the faithful today dont mind if I question some of your inspiring quotes? Pardon me for being such an agnostic. I'll post once more in response to a great post by you. I asked both questions of lease vs buy to two local MB dealers and my local Lexus guy. The answer was 90-95% lease vs buy on the S-class (the dealers tell and encourage the customers to lease because it's a better deal and they want the renrewal 3 years later) and 80-20 on the LS (they also want that renewal but Lexus let's the dealers subsidize leases due to the higher bandwidth of dealer invoice and MSRP So is your survey above comprehensive enough to make a conclusion about the LS/S lease vs. buy topic? No it is not! Your argument is quite meaningless without a larger number of dealers being surveyed. Anyone buying upfront is missing the better business deal in my view and it's amazing to me that folks on the board can't see thru or accept lease marketing of cars. No I think your above quote is missing the point of view of the buyer himself. How long does the buyer want to keep the car and does he like living under the terms of a lease can make or break the advantages of any lease deal. A for the C&D review it's also amazing here that people think Lexus buyers reject it for any reason other than logic and common sense. The LS430 would have beaten the LS460 by a light year according to them and you'd need a Fred Flintstone breaking system to stop the car. Sure. As I stated earlier if I missed a cross check on checks and balances of earlier results like that in finance (and you in law for the same reason) I'd be fired on the spot. I think most of the comparison reviews between the LS and S were based on the honest opinions of the reviewers themselves. Such kind of honesty can lead to a promotion and unfortunately sometimes a demotion in finance. 
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Replying to: ljflx (Dec 17, 2006 7:58 am) It isn't just Car and Driver. It is any review that doesn't put the LS460 in the best light. What about Automobile who picked the S over the LS for the 2007 All-Stars list? You've used that as selling point of the LS430 in the past when it made the list. Now the list doesn't matter? What about all the other reviews that have been less than glowing about the LS. Forget the newspaper and other non-automotive sources, just look at the automotive sources, they haven't been singing the praises of the LS either. The only review that you've accepted as being "right" about the LS is Cnet. If you've got to rely on a review from a group of folks who don't test cars for a living then that is pretty desperate. All these years Car and Driver was right on the money, but now they're clueless. Yet in the past when they compared a brand new LS with the competition and they used a pre-production LS400 and LS430 there wasn't a problem. There has never been a more clear case of not liking what is being said and choosing to ignore it. If you look at the C&D review the only things that would be different had they used a production car would have been the brakes. The trunk space, handling and other things they didn't like wouldn't be any different. This about the LS430 beating the LS460 is pure nonsense. The LS430 was compared to a different Jaguar and a different Mercedes, why can't you allow that at least 2 of the cars in that comparo have moved the game on, especially a brand new S-Class? Production or not, with that many faults (according to C&D) the LS460L still wouldn't have won. Production status doesn't change trunk space or handling. Now I know you'll say those things don't matter of course. What about the other reviews that haven't been as glowing as the LS430's were back when? It isn't just C&D, I don't know why Lexus fans can't see that. You can't see that for 93K (in this test) the Lexus was only 10K less than the superior driving, better performing Benz? Lexus can't be priced that close and deliever a mediocre driving experience and expect to win. Lexus used to have at least a 15 if not 20K price advantage. Now you guys tell me that 10K doesn't make a difference at this level because of leasing and what not so why should it count in a comparo. Either 10K matter or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways. I'll give you that a new LS being placed behind cars that it beat previously is something to wonder about, sure, but not with a new Mercedes. That to me suggest that Car and Driver put more emphasis on actual driving this time around. It is clear that with the worldwide praise that the new S has received since its launch is that it has moved the game on much farther than some here want to believe, especially compared the previous S. M |
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Replying to: merc1 (Dec 17, 2006 10:35 am) I would give you this one for the S, Merc, but in the objective categories the Audi actually won, not the S. In the combined and VERY SUBJECTIVE "Got to have it" and "Fun to Drive" categories the S out scored the Audi by 2 points to eak out a 1 point win. Talk about a rigged test from the start. They should investigate how much Mercedes paid C&D for this one. The buying public will be the final arbitor on which is the most desired and best car, and we all know the LS will win that one.
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Replying to: houdini1 (Dec 17, 2006 11:40 am) Well apparently Lexus thinks LWB buyers want it all because that is the only LS model that they offer the sportier setup on isn't it? Too bad this particular LS didn't have it. Secondly the test was not about finding the sportiest car, otherwise the BMW or the Audi would have one. You kill me with this excuse making by painting the test out to be as simplistic as finding the best handling car with a Benz finishing #1, when we all know BMW makes a better handling car. It was all around competence that put the S and A8 at the top. If it were about sheer handling, the 750Li would be #1. I would give you this one for the S, Merc, but in the objective categories the Audi actually won, not the S. In the combined and VERY SUBJECTIVE "Got to have it" and "Fun to Drive" categories the S out scored the Audi by 2 points to eak out a 1 point win. Talk about a rigged test from the start. They should investigate how much Mercedes paid C&D for this one. Yeah by one point, which is also what it lost by. WOW, someone call the conspiracy police. True it could have gone either way but this pay off stuff is pure de nonsense, otherwise you need to phone Toyota and ask them whey their Lexus division got so tight with their pocketbook after years and years of paying C&D off. Makes sense to me. The A8 has proven to be a tough competitor not just in American mags but in some European ones also where it has taken a victory or two over the new S based on price, standard AWD etc, so I have no problem with it winning, but this conspiracy nonsense is just that. The buying public will be the final arbitor on which is the most desired and best car, and we all know the LS will win that one. Right, thanks to a cheapo SWB model that starts out in the low 60K range where no S even comes close to playing. M |
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Replying to: dewey (Dec 17, 2006 7:30 am) Thank you for congratulating members in this forum and pooh poohing other members of this forum. Dewey, so sorry that you read my post as personal attacks. That was certainly not my intent, and never has been. I certainly don't pretend to have the same depth of knowledge about auto engineering as even the least of the other regular posters here; the only thing I try to add with my occasional posts is applying some rigorous logic (probably the result of my legal training) to discussions that sometimes seem to go off point, or worse, devolve into partisan positioning. Oh, and I do profess to also have some knowledge about finance (I run one of the top-50 independent securities broker-dealers in the US). But I stay involved here mostly to learn from the other posters - definitely including you - and to be entertained by the community's banter. I re-read my post and frankly don't see how I "pooh poohed" anyone. I did compliment ljflx's knowledge of finance, and inferred that I agreed with brightness04 about what he was saying about the significance of leasing, but I didn't say anything bad about anyone. Anyway, from the other responses to my post, it looks like other people read it in the light it was intended. Again, sorry if you took it otherwise. Yikes, I can't imagine how you'll respond if I ever have the temerity to say I disagree with you about something. Now back to HELCs..... |
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Replying to: blkhemi (Dec 17, 2006 8:25 am) Thanks very much for the "welcome back" (I'll wear the badge of Great Moderate proudly) and for the clarification on the interior materials in the 460L. I definitely will have to check this out for myself at some point. The problem is I never get to the Lexus dealer to look at the new cars; whenever my '05 LS430 needs routine maintenance (it has never needed any other service except for a computer refresh to fix the "hesitation" problem, which was done at the same time as the first free oil change), the dealer sends someone to me, leaves me a free Lexus loaner, picks up my car and services it, then returns it and takes back the loaner. Certainly part of the Lexus ownership experience that will be hard to give up in the future. |
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