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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Boy, you folks sure make it hard on us working blokes to keep up with this board! I take a few days off from reading and all of a sudden I am 300 posts behind. Forgive me if this goes back aways, but allow me to make a few observations on the discussions that have ensued. First, let me say it was great to see a post from ljflx, even if it was only to tell us why he wasn't likely to be posting here again soon. Len, I sure wish you would change your mind on that. Brightness has had a hard time fighting Merc and Tag on basic financial issues without you! We need your financial acumen. Second, I found the recent CD review extremely questionable in this respect: Merc, forget the S, which is indeed a new model and may be a better car than the LS from this reviewer's point of view. But how did the new LS come out below old models of the Jag and the Audi that its predecessor beat previously? For that to happen, the new LS460 would have to be a worse car than the old LS430. Does anyone believe that a comparison of those two cars would have the LS430 come out way on top? The only real issue with the LS460 I saw was the braking distance, but somehow you have to believe that something was wrong with the tested car; maybe it was due to pre-production, maybe the tires, maybe some computer adjustment was needed - do we really believe that Lexus intended to come out with a car that was substantially worse in braking than any of its competitors, and all other cheaper Lexus models? "Hiro-san, didn't you try out the brakes in a test car before releasing for production?" "No, Senior Engineer-san, I thought you said you did it! Oops!" Blkhemi, all this talk about the cheap plastic in the interior of the LS460; do you really mean to say that Lexus went from higher quality materials in the LS430 to lower quality materials in the LS460L? I haven't seen one close up myself yet, so maybe it's true, but again it seems hard to believe. Finally, the old lease/purchase LS/S debate rises once again from the dead. Brightness, you are so correct on this that it hurts my head to read the rebuttals that don't rebut anything. The only argument on the other side that makes any sense at all is Merc's continued challenge that no one has provided any proof that the overwhelming majority of HELCs are leased, so MSRP differences must be relevant (I'm sure he will say I am misparaphrasing, so I apologize in advance). First, just go ask any MB dealer what percentage of his S sales are leases and you'll get the answer; and it will be very high. Further proof is found by looking at the December promotions on both MB's and Lexus' web sites, and tell me what deals are there other than leasing deals. But more important is that even on the purchase side, look at the discount from MSRP you could get on the LS430 vs. the discount from MSRP on the S430 when both were towards the end of their cycles: the LS dealer cost was a much bigger percentage below MSRP than S dealer cost. And guess what, it's still true on the LS460L vs. the S550! Look at Edmunds and you can see for yourself. Bottom line: when the dust settles and supply and demand are back in balance for both the LS and the S, the true cost of purchase of an LS versus an S will be greater than the difference between their MSRPs. But the difference in lease costs will be relatively smaller, which is relevant to many more people. In any case, the MSRPs will be irrelevant to everyone except the car reviewers.
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Replying to: garyh1 (Dec 16, 2006 11:01 pm) thank you for telling us who has a high acumen and who doesnt have a high acumen in these forums Thank you for congratulating members in this forum and pooh poohing other members of this forum. Thank you for providing us with your lease/purchase LS/S and CD test drive views especially when they cannot be verified with facts. I do respect your views and it is so nice of you to join us. But we forum members here do not need to be spoon fed by your opinions on who is right and who is wrong. Thanks but no thanks our acumen is high enough to make those kinds of judgements ourselves. Now how about discussing HELCs instead of forum members. How's that for a radical notion 
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Replying to: dewey (Dec 16, 2006 9:35 pm) http://www.InsuranceHotline.com/a10.html ACCIDENTS – from worst to best Libra - Worst Scorpio Capricorn Aries Aquarius Sagittarius Pisces Taurus Virgo Gemini Cancer Leo – Best Here's another source: http://www.suncorp.com.au/suncorp/news/2002/feb_10_2.html ACCIDENTS – from worst to best Gemini - Worst Taurus Pisces Virgo Cancer Aquarius Aries Leo Libra Sagittarius Scorpio Capricorn - Best
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Replying to: designman (Dec 17, 2006 7:33 am) 
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Replying to: dewey (Dec 17, 2006 7:30 am) LOL. Good advice for all of us. Including...yourself. |
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Replying to: garyh1 (Dec 16, 2006 11:01 pm) |
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Replying to: houdini1 (Dec 14, 2006 6:40 pm) Never did I say the LS shares a platform with a Toyota. The IS, GS, LS, and SC were mentioned as being the only Lexus models to own their platforms singularly, albeit the LS was sold as a Toyota(in limited quantities, no doubt) in it's homeland Japan up until last year. This was all to disprove the notion that Lexus is not without sharing, as some of the faithful have eluded to report. In fact, they're the only current luxury company that has 3 or more variants based off of lower-end models.
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Replying to: blkhemi (Dec 17, 2006 7:52 am) |
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Replying to: garyh1 (Dec 16, 2006 11:01 pm) I'll post once more in response to a great post by you. I asked both questions of lease vs buy to two local MB dealers and my local Lexus guy. The answer was 90-95% lease vs buy on the S-class (the dealers tell and encourage the customers to lease because it's a better deal and they want the renrewal 3 years later) and 80-20 on the LS (they also want that renewal but Lexus let's the dealers subsidize leases due to the higher bandwidth of dealer invoice and MSRP. So if you live in a competitive dealer area with a less hot car you will be a lot luckier than those of us who don't. I'm going to have to deposit this car 60 days before lease end just to get one so forget about any negotiation here.) But there have been more people buying the LS460L than normal in lease/buy ratios because Lexus is being conservative on the LS 460L lease right now. Everytime I run numbers on the highest end lux cars buying 3 years after leasing is as good a deal or better than buying up front and that's assuming you buy at the lease deal price. Many buy many thousands lower, particularly on the German cars because the market hasn't supported lease buy out residuals. It's why many banks exited the lease car business because they got killed on such residuals. Anyone buying upfront is missing the better business deal in my view and it's amazing to me that folks on the board can't see thru or accept lease marketing of cars. In summary from my viewpoint there is a big difference between the German approach and the Lexus pproach. The Germans want control and discount thru leases thus the low amount of invoice to MSRP. Lexus goes the other way and lets the dealer have control thus the higher variance in MSRP and invoice both in absolute dollars and percentage of MSRP, the latter is where the differences with the Germans are very large. A for the C&D review it's also amazing here that people think Lexus buyers reject it for any reason other than logic and common sense. The LS430 would have beaten the LS460 by a light year according to them and you'd need a Fred Flintstone breaking system to stop the car. Sure. As I stated earlier if I missed a cross check on checks and balances of earlier results like that in finance (and you in law for the same reason) I'd be fired on the spot. As for me I'm long done with the infighting and team approach. I'll never post in that regard again.
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Replying to: tagman (Dec 14, 2006 8:51 pm) Last time I checked, my Vette Z06 was rated as having 49/51 weight transferance. The Porsche's 38/62 split is fine good for planting power to the ground, which it does an admirable job, especially in Carrera 4 models, but the nose does tend to wander a bit during some high-speed maneuvers, something that has plagued 911's for quite sometime. This, however, isn't noticed by most drivers as most cars don't ever see a track. Porsche knows this, and they've been talking quite sometime about doing something about it. They may very well take the 911 mid-engined, as the rear seats are basically useless, but I do believe that front-engine is not completely out of the equation. |
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