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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Sword down for a moment. In reading the LS board I sense that some have decided to leave us again because there hasn't been enough praise of the new LS. In fairness, the review in which one compares the LS460L to the E63 AMG is bunk and not at all fair to the LS460L. Car and Driver's comparo while having some curious points concerning weight and having used a pre-production LS460L, is but one comparo. The only reason I and others hammered it is because this is the comparo that some banked on for a Lexus win or at the very least 2nd place and when that didn't happen, C&D is now (hasn't been in the previous 2-3 comparos concerning the LS) clueless or even more shockingly outright dishonest? I'm now reading that after all the years C&D was right on the money in placing the LS400 and LS430 models first, they've now fallen off and can't be trusted. I don't get this. Seriously, how is it that one can pick and choose which reviews are valid basely solely on whether or not they give the LS460 a glowing review or not? C&D clearly mentioned that the A8 was a 2006 model and that the LS460L was a pre-production model, but because they didn't shout this about the LS from the top of the page or in bold print they aren't to be trusted? Then you have the reasoning that they shouldn't have used a pre-production LS in a comparo, yet they've done it at least twice before. In one of the LS400 comparos years ago C&D stated that Lexus asked for the test as soon as possible and they (Lexus) supplied C&D a pre-production test car. If the car wasn't up to snuff then why turn it over to C&D for a comparo test? Edmunds reviewed the SWB LS460 and came right out and said that the S-Class (among others) hadn't been matched. The previous LS430 was an Automobile All-Star no? Now for 2007 there is a new LS and S and the S gets the nod. Why all of sudden is a magazine that recognized the supposed excellence of the previous LS not a viable judge of luxury cars now? Just because they dared pick a new S over a new LS? Help me out here? Forget the European reviews they aren't going to give a Lexus the nod of the usual German suspects. This stance I get because it is in part true because the Lexus doesn't have the dynamics of Euro spec versions of the S/7/A8. Now those who say these reviews are bunk do realize that the often times European spec BMW/MB/Audi models are firmer in suspension than U.S. spec cars? During the MT COTY competition they clearly state that the LS is a great car, but it doesn't meet or exceed the S-Class overall despite faults with both cars. I'm sure there will be other comparos from MT, Road and Track, Edmunds, and even Autoweek might do a head to head between the LS460L and S550 so of course the final verdict is still out, but if one can't see which way the evidence is leaning they simply are chosing to ignore the majority of that evidence. How could all these source be wrong and/or have something against Lexus when most of them (except MT) put the previous LS over the previous S before?How can this be called anything but denial? Why is so hard for the faithful to believe that the LS460/L didn't repeat 1989 (or 2001) when some of the previous LS strongholds have shifted? Doc, Houdini, 2001gs430? M |
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Replying to: merc1 (Dec 11, 2006 3:31 pm) It is sad that so many have left this forum for the LS forum. Despite the excuses one hears over there, I can't help but think that there are a couple of reasons that might be contributing, at least in some cases: 1. The LS reviews to date have been mixed. Some good, some middling, some not so good. Maybe the comparo type reviews will change a bit once the comparison can be made to the S450 rather than S550, and/or once production units are tested. But for now, some lexusfans can't seem to take the heat. Some of them are simply in denial...leaving this forum is the equivalent of sticking their heads in the sand. I would bet that more of them would still be on this forum if the reviews and comparos were universally positive for the new LS. 2. The sometimes (mostly in the past) uncivility that can take place here. Where people are just lambasted mercilessly at times, to the point where they are practially run off the forum. Stevekilburn comes to mind (and I think I was one of the guilty parties in that case). Not the most welcoming environment, when things are bad. |
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Replying to: merc1 (Dec 11, 2006 3:31 pm) In fairness to the LS board, I would like to know which reviews THEY consider VALID, whether pro or con regarding the LS or S-Class. BTW, I, of all people, provided the LS forum yesterday with a re-post of one of the most positive reviews of the LS460 ever written. Barely got a thank you, except from cyclone4, I believe. Sometimes folks do indeed put the blinders on, IMO. This is the HELC forum, where cars can be compared. We are not just about Mercedes here, or BMW, or Lexus, so there are going to be more criticisms than on a board that is essentially about lots of stroking for a particular car. Heck, one contestant in the ring isn't about to get hit... but more than one, and there's bound to be some jabs of criticism. If this was a forum to only compliment the cars, and not look at their weaknesses as well, then I wouldn't be here! What the heck do they expect? I'd like an answer to my question, so I'll repeat it: In fairness to the LS board, I would like to know which reviews THEY consider VALID, whether pro or con regarding the LS or S-Class. TagMan |
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Replying to: syswei (Dec 11, 2006 4:01 pm) The Lexus folks have had a very long and successful ride. It is quite likely that their LS460-Series vehicle may have hit a bump or two, and in addition to that, the Mercedes S-Class may be considered by most reviewers to be an overall superior vehicle. They are not used to this for quite some time, if ever, and letting a little air out of their balloon is not a bad thing, but it does take some adjustment and a good hard reality check. As more reviews come in, and head to head challenges occur, we will see an even brighter light as to how these cars stack up against one another. Either way, there will be strengths and weaknesses for ALL cars reviewed... and those weaknesses also apply to the LS460, whether they like it or not. I suppose one of the things that makes it harder for them is the way some of us seem to lick our chops and savor the moment. But, truthfully, I don't think we need to apologize for liking the outcome of the reviews. I, personally respect the LS, but truly enjoy the fact that the S-Class is very often being considered a superior car by many reviews. I hope in the final analysis that the S-Class is CLEARLY the better car. I admit this. So what? I still respect the LS, but I'm not going to wear blinders, that's for sure, or whisper my criticisms when there is an LS poster aboard. I also admit that I love the way Audi is getting the recognition it deserves, finally. And BMW, as a company, is starting to get even more exciting than it already was. Lots of good things, and they're not entirely about Lexus. I have no problem with that. TagMan |
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I believe I wrote a very positive review of the LS when I drove it at the "Taste". It is a very nice car indeed. I am as confounded as most of you are, as to why some feel the need to pick up their toys, and play in another sand box, when their hasn't been the proper amount of praise heaped on it by everyone. To each his own I guess. Drfill. I don't think anyone is "hating on Lexus". But this is largely an enthusiasts thread, and Lexus doesn't make cars [so far] that appeal to that crowd. [A very small market in America.] The fact that Lexus sells so well, but has a hard time doing well when compared in driving dynamics to it's direct competitors, is proof that the average American car buyer, buys on comfort, features, and reliability. I don't think most of us have a problem giving Lexus it's due where deserved. Build quality, reliability, ergonomics, resale, service, etc. But for Lexus to have a heritage of making passionless cars, isn't it a little weird to expect a website full of enthusiasts to love it, when they've basically made another passionless car? Isn't it a little childish to expect people to love it, and then leave in a huff when a small amount of people disagree with them. I mean, they have the whole sales #'s thing on their side, so why not just call us all crazy, and continue in the fun. Why must people be like politicians, and only have people around them, that mimic their opinion? Jeremy Clarkson isn't fond of Audi's, but I'm not going to stop watching Top Gear. It's a very entertaining, and informative show. [He's nuts for hating on Audi's though  .]
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Replying to: merc1 (Dec 11, 2006 3:31 pm)  I notice many of the Euro regulars here are also posting on the LS board: Tag, HP, and others. There is much good info on both boards. So, no, I will be around to pull the rug out from under you from time to time and to make sure you don't get too carried away with that bloated, brake dust smeared, wallowing hog of an S class. 
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have bent over backwards in trying to make the HELC thread a more comfortable environment when the prodigals grace us with their presence. The "boycott" is something I would expect from a bunch of spoiled kids in summer camp. Magazines that were praised several years ago are now "rags." Human behavior can indeed be quite amusing!
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I've finally chosen to join in. I knew it wouldn't be long before another Lexus V. The World hellfire started, and here it is. Some LS460 fans have opted to resort in trashing other premium makes simply because the car that is supposed to be the envy all over has not been received in the manner it should have been. There have been some problems: 1). The MBZ S550,600,63: No matter how pricey this ride is, it will sell like never before. This car has the star power and people want it, which explains why the car is selling at full sticker(more in some places). No matter what premium marque comes along, none will be able to topple the 3-pointed star. 2). The Value equation: To many, this car no longer represents the value that drawed so many to the vehicle in the first place.  $64k w/mandatory opt. pkg, that SWB XJ8 and A8 starts to look very good for only a few grand more all the while offering more std. features in the process. 3). Is it improved enough: For many, myself included, this car doesn't seem to be that quantum leap that the '95 was over the '94, and the '01 was over the '00. True, there are new gadgets galore, but the overall feel still screams Avalon all over again. The overall styling is not groundbreaking and different enough, as say, an IS. Then factor in the expanse of not-very-Lexus-like hard plastic surfaces and a few unliked powertrain quibbles, and it adds up. As I've said numerous times, this is not at all to say that the LS is not a worthy car. The LS will still for sure offer to it's customers what they've come to expect. But now it costs more to play. But that should not mean that some should divert to calling one of the best premium makes on the planet "a maker without sizzle". Some may say that fits Lexus vehicles very well... |
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Replying to: houdini1 (Dec 11, 2006 5:24 pm) Mildly amusing! 
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