Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#21768 of 24723 Who needs a Lexus-F when Infiniti can make a better car?
Dec 04, 2006 (10:17 am)
IMO Infiniti would be a far better contender in producing exclusive limited production performance cars than Lexus. Unlike Lexus, Infiniti has proven with the M and G that they can produce both a chassis and a drivetrain that can easily compete with the Germans. Also the Nissan GT-R shows what potential Infiniti has in producing exciting cars.
So why Lexus-F models? I guess Toyota is continuing its tradition of imitating Germans again by offering special limited editions. Apparently that is where the growth is according to a Wall Street Journal article:
The growth of the luxury vehicle market is great news for auto makers with strong brands in the segment. But it presents a problem. If one of every five people on the road is driving a "luxury" car, the mystique of exclusivity that gives luxury brands a good chunk of their pricing power risks dilution.
This is why there are cars like the S65 AMG and it's why you will see more such vehicles -- although not too many -- in coming years. The S65 AMG -- and rival high-performance models such as the BMW M5 or the Audi R8 -- represent the strategy by which "mass luxury" brands, as opposed to more exclusive nameplates like Rolls-Royce and Ferrari, will offer something special to customers whose financial capacity and discerning tastes set them apart from the merely affluent.
The S65 AMG is very much a connoisseur's car. The real point of this car isn't the top speed or horsepower -- or even the city fuel economy of 13 miles per gallon. The magic of the S65 AMG is in the torque. The big AMG's V12 delivers 738 pound-feet of torque at a low 2000 revolutions per minute
SOURCE: WALL STREET JOURNAL DEC 4 2006
#21769 of 24723 Re: Lexus to compete (or try to!) with AMG, M [syswei]
Dec 04, 2006 (12:09 pm)
Thanks for the update, syswei.
But, regarding the IS, give me a call when the stick gets thur! Same goes for the "F-Class".
Mercedes makes plenty of super-fast slushmobiles! All they get is a yawn from me. The market needs an animal meant to be driven! They should approach it the same way Chevy does the 'Vette/Z06.
Fast doesn't always equal fun.
I hear the Z06 is fun!
#21770 of 24723 Anybody pick up this month's MT?
Dec 04, 2006 (12:18 pm)
If you can get around the Camry's greatness, the LS460 and S550 were, more or less, compared. Interesting findings!
0-60: Mercedes - 5.6 to 5.7
Quarter: Lexus - 14.0 to 14.2
Braking: Mercedes - 127 to 135
Slalom - 60.1 Lexus, 58.6 Mercedes
Skidpad - .83 Mercedes, .81 Lexus
No need to ask who has economy or price advantages (almost $30k less for as-tested Lexus!).
They basically said what you'd expect, the LS is a preeminent passengers car, and lacks an intangible that Mercedes has.
"Still, Mercedes-level tech in a creamy, quiet package with a $25k discount should make Stuttgart nervous."
At the end of the day, it all comes down to price/value.
The LS SWB is still doing it's job expertly, I'd say.
BTW, many complaints about the luxury features in the Benz being stylish, but not very useful (Night Vision, adjustable susp.).
The more things change.....
#21771 of 24723 Re: Anybody pick up this month's MT? [drfill]
Dec 04, 2006 (2:10 pm)
I posted some links at 21553.
The LS needs little more BRAKING power, other than that, I believe it beats the S in comfort/luxury and value.
Tag the Man, insisted that the we compare ONLY the LS L to the S550.
#21772 of 24723 Re: Lexus to compete (or try to!) with AMG, M [lexusguy]
Dec 04, 2006 (2:20 pm)
You are right about the L-tuned stuff. I found out that with $2500 part and labor, my car would out handle the last gen 540i (sport version). They used to offer this as a dealer option.
I guess now, with the F's, TMC is doing the variant thing to the Lexus line up.
#21773 of 24723 Re: Anybody pick up this month's MT? [drfill]
Dec 04, 2006 (2:39 pm)
DrFill, 2001GS and Houdini:
You three Lexus Musketeers have done wonders in defending the good and reputable name of Lexus despite all the mud slinging going on in this forum and outside this forum (auto journalists) regarding the LS
Touche and good work indeed.
If you think the LS reviews are bad you aint seen the latest review of the MB AMG S65 by CNNMoney/Fortune Magazine.Coincidentally Wall Street Journal could not stop raving today about the S65 while another another business mag/website today pooh poohs the S65. I guess we shouldn't be taking auto reviews in business magazines too seriously?
Blkhemi I think you are very wise in picking the MB S600 over a MB AMG S65. A MB S65 is nothing more then a elephant(a large LWB luxury sedan) that wants to sprint and be and be as nimble as a leopard ( a sporty roadster). The S65 is proof that such a combo is not possible.
Tagman at least you picked the right car for performance--a Porshce 911. Your car is certainly more fun to drive than a MB AMG S65.
Whether you want to take CNN/Fortune seriously in terms of an auto review is up to you. But if you do here are some riveting details of their horrid AMG S65 review :
PHOENIXVILLE, Penn. (CNNMoney.com) -- Some people, no matter how much they have, want to be sure they have more than everyone else.
If you're one of those people, the high-priced Mercedes-Benz S65 AMG is the car for you - though you may regret your obsession with rushing to the top.
This is a big car, though. Trying to make it into a sports sedan is a futile effort. True, it feels well controlled in turns. The automatically adjusting suspension stiffens up under pressure so there's surprisingly little body lean.
But, beyond goosing the gas pedal, is it fun to drive?
No, not really.
It packs a punch, but at such a cost. It's not just the $40,000 between this and the V-12-powered S600, or even the $90,000 between this and the V-8-powered S550.
It's as if someone drank a third of your bottle of Courvoisier and filled it back up with Night Train. The S65 is brimming with raw power, but the modifications make it feel, ultimately, more ordinary to drive than the car on which it's based.
With its heavy and wide wheels and tires, and the power steering cranked up to compensate, the S65's steering is flighty and numb at low speeds.
As speed increases, and the power steering boost is ratcheted down, steering feel is much better. But you feel bumps and, over rough pavement, you hear the sizzle of rubber over asphalt and the "whap" of expansion joints. In the S-class's opulent cabin, the noise is grating and out of place.
The S65 doesn't have the advanced seven-speed transmission you get in other S-class cars, either. With 738 foot-pounds of torque, the S65's engine would make cogmeat salad out of that fancy machinery.
So it comes with a 5-speed transmission. Again, feeling shifts from an automatic transmission is nothing unusual. But when those shifts are virtually imperceptible in versions costing tens of thousands less, you begin wondering just what it is you're paying for.
Very few are fortunate to even be able to consider the S65 AMG. But there's a lesson here for everyone. More power doesn't always mean more enjoyment
#21774 of 24723 NY Times on the BMW M6
Dec 04, 2006 (4:04 pm)
The biggest flaw in the M6 is its SMG transmission. Unfortunately BMW engineers at this point of time cannot make the SMG as capable as VW/Audi's DSG tranny.
These criticisms are trivial compared with the M6’s one absolute failure: its transmission. The seven-speed sequential manual gearbox, intended to mimic a paddle-shifted Formula One racecar, is neither a good automatic nor a competent manual. After a week of frustration, I asked for a second week with the car to see if I could eventually make peace with the transmission.
Fact is, when driven hard (and this is a car that seems to relish being pushed to its considerable limits), the gearbox shifts crisply. But if you ask it to perform mundane daily duties like driving to a grocery store — or nearly any task at which a two-speed Chevy Powerglide from the 1960s would excel — the S.M.G. fails miserably. Shifts are harsh and come at unexpected times. Starting from a stop is an exercise in lurch management.
SOURCE: NY TIMES
#21775 of 24723 Re: Anybody pick up this month's MT? [drfill]
Dec 04, 2006 (4:36 pm)
When C&D's review came out you were shaking your head and hanging it low...and discrediting that review as though it was trash. Now MT compares the short wheelbase(??) LS to the S550?... and suddently you are very supportive of the article.
This is what merc1 always seems to complain about...agreeing with only those reviews that say what you like.
This seems like an example of that to me.
#21776 of 24723 Re: Anybody pick up this month's MT? [dewey]
Dec 04, 2006 (4:49 pm)
Tagman at least you picked the right car for performance--a Porsche 911. Your car is certainly more fun to drive than a MB AMG S65.
Fun is exactly what I'm having with this car.
But, in all honesty. I'd love to have that AMG S65 or even an S600 parked next to it. But that's not gonna happen anytime soon. I don't have blkhemi's resources.
BTW, I noticed a pic on the Porsche website that is exactly like the one I purchased, so I'll post it so you'll know what mine looks like. Here it is:
No silver for me...speed yellow all the way.
#21777 of 24723 Re: NY Times on the BMW M6 [dewey]
Dec 04, 2006 (5:09 pm)
Thats why I like the Jag's ZF gearbox so much. It blips the throttle and matches revs during downshifts, and upshifts happen instantaniously, no tip-lag. At the same time, when in auto mode its buttery smooth. Definitely better than any SMG out there, other than Audi's S-tronic, which would actually be useless on the Jag because the torque would tear it apart.