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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Replying to: tagman (Nov 29, 2006 4:38 pm) Well the time has come, and as predicted, the new LS460(especially in L) is no longer that "value-conscience, sensible" buy that it was once was. In fact, it now poses as the least "valued" LS of all 17 years. Speaking of 17 years, that's all this company has. MB, Audi, BMW and Jag can all charge a premium as they've put in work over countless decades to do so. So the whole "S550 is way to overpriced" arguement is thrown out of the window as the we now see what the LS460L charges just to play ball with the almighty S550. IMO, Lexus, with their high dollar cars, has strayed away and abandoned their philosphy of "we offer what they offer, for considerably less". To put it in more prospectives: The '00 MB top-dog, the S500, costed, on average, 78-80k. The new S550 is at 90-95k in most forms. The LS400 of 2000 hit at 49k(if you could find one). The 2001 LS430 rang in at 55k for starters, on average, about 62-64k. The new LS460 starts off at roughly 64k. To compete with the big dogs, you have to go L, and with a few options, that puppy swells from a low of 70k(you will not find one like this because even if you try to order it, Lexus only builds very few, if any for our markets- Oh, and you have to buy option packages on Lexus vehicles) to an ultimate of $96k. Where's the value? Those are some pretty sharp increases, no matter how you cut it folks. Sorry, but the LS is no longer a value. Does that make it a bad buy? Heck no, it's still a Lexus, and to the folks that luv'em, buy up, as this is still a pretty sturdy ride. But you can no longer beat up the other cars because they're marginally higher. With the exception of the Benz, the other cars in it's class are now in the same price point. BTW: I wasn't upset about the LS' interior. It's just not what I expected it to be, not much of a vast improvement. The panel gaps are the worse tho. And that hard plastic is way out of line. In line for a $32k Chrysler 300C HEMI as it is a value enough, out of line for the supposed quality king of interior materials and workmanship Alas, I will be waiting out in the front yard for you to wisk me away in the new Carrera.  CONGRATS!!!!!!!
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Replying to: lexusguy (Nov 26, 2006 10:49 pm) In two years or so, it's going to be SO hard for me to choose between the XKR and a 911... wow... decisions, decisions. The XKR has a price advantage (95 more hp for about the same price as a Carrera Cabriolet with my options), but a Porsche will always be a Porsche. I'll have to drive both. '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330 |
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I am curious about your perspective on that rather large $92K ticket. I am of the opinion that the price of the Lexus is now too high to be considered the great value it once was. In fact, I believe it is now somewhat overpriced and much more vulnerable to competition than it was in the past. What do you think about this? Speaking of 17 years, that's all this company has. MB, Audi, BMW and Jag can all charge a premium as they've put in work over countless decades to do so. So the whole "S550 is way to overpriced" arguement is thrown out of the window as the we now see what the LS460L charges just to play ball with the almighty S550. Tag Two Tings! First, the Lexus LS460 is still a stud value, it's just changed the formula to capture more conquest sales. The LS460 is still a tremendous value, when compared to a S550 or 750iL, it just doesn't compare in rear legroom. Popularly equipped, it's still $25k less (at around $75k) than the $100k S550. I think $25k is quite a bridge to cross, especially after having driven both cars back-to-back. The L is a different idiom, and is still $15k less, in general. And it offers features not commonly available in this class, enhancing it's value if you buy luxury cars for the features, which many do. The L version IS A STRONG VALUE. If you want a $90-100k Lexus LS, that's fine, it'll have more features than the S550, much less an A8/750. The LS460L is not a $90k car. But it can be. I don't think we refer to the S550 as a $120k car, although it can be. So let's try to be fair on this front. I was the main one PUSHING for Lexus to go upmarket with this car. Why? Growth of the brand, and it's image. The New LS is better than the LS430 in every way. To such an extent, that you can't really charge the same for it. The L will sell BIG! Maybe better than the 430, and enhance the brand's image in the process. The LS460 is still there to handle current LS owners looking to replace a car they love, and wouldn't change. Hemi Implying the 300C has any interior similarity to the LS is a joke. It hurts your credibility when you say things like that. I've driven the 300, and know the 300 has a particularly weak interior design quality, but has decent ergonomics. The 300 and the Lexus have NOTHING in common! If your gonna bag on the LS, at least make it plausible, ok? Thanks. DrFill
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I, too, look at AutoSpies sometimes to watch the posts. It's pretty hilarious. The people there are in constant fighting- it's like Lexus vs. Audi vs. BMW all the time! It's much more civilized here. And I wouldn't have it any other way. I'm assessing all the cars in the high-end class, from worst to best: Jaguar XJ: Old-world British charm just doesn't cut it any more. This car is beautiful to some tastes, and horrifically retro to others. With an underwhelming 300hp V-8, it doesn't move you like the others, but it's not far behind with its ultra-lightweight aluminum construction. BMW 7 Series: Made a huge splash when it came out in 2002, but I feel like its fifteen minutes of fame are over. The interior is nicer (and even more complex) than most people think, and the driving dynamics are ample, if not class-leading. The AWD A8 and powerful S-Class both have handling that's at least as good, if not better. This car just isn't a leader any more, and with a starting price of $75K, won't see too many people buying it over an S-Class. Lexus LS460: The Lexus owners will argue, sure, and this isn't a bad place to be for the Lexus. Especially in this exquisite company. The LS460 delivers in luxury, which is obviously the strongest point in this class. But, so do all the others. And what it's lacking are curbside appeal and sporting pretensions. Even though sporty driving isn't a top priority, in the Jaguar, BMW, Audi and Mercedes, at least you know it's there when you want it. The LS has also gotten significantly pricier this year. $67K for LS460 and $77K for LS460L. Interesting that Lexus made the L version $10,000 more- that's a Porsche-like move, and not commonly seen in this class. The avg is more like a $4,000 difference. An odd extra is the self-park feature. Is it worth it? I'd sure like to try it out. Audi A8: Yes, it's still up there. The style hasn't gotten old, the interior is still the best this side of a Bentley Conti GT, and I drove a 2007 A8 SWB the other night. Boy, was I impressed. Much faster than the 2006 version. Like a slightly less racier, much more luxurious, sedan version of my car. Which it is! If you can't swallow the S550's steep sticker, the A8 is the best combination of luxury and performance. Its key strong points include AWD, the interior, and the fact that it feels like an A4 behind the wheel. In most of the others, it really does feel like you're driving a barge. Not so with the A8. Mercedes S-Class: Mercedes was falling behind, but the star gleams once again with the new S550. Beautiful inside and out (though the exterior doesn't cater to some tastes), excellent driving dynamics, and some exorbitant luxury features that aren't seen even in its Maybach cousin. Of course, greatness comes at a price, and the S-Class is dear. But it's hard to resist. A bonus is the massive curbside appeal that none of the others can match. It truly could be the best car in the world. Just my analyses. '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330 |
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I just got my january car and driver in, and read the following letter in the "backfire" section. "I don't care what kind of tires the Lexus LS 460 was wearing when you tested it. A 209 foot braking distance from 70 mph to standstill is simply unacceptable for a Lexus flagship. A few pages later in your "full size SUV comparo" the worst braking competitor-Lincoln's 6119 pound Navigator-managed to stop in an identical 209 feet. Hell, I can buy a 5629-pound Range Rover that stops in 165 feet. Relentlessly pursuing perfection? Lexus should be embarrassed." Dylan Brooks Stamford, Connecticut Car and driver responds "We tested an LS460L this month [page 102] and recorded a not-much-better 207 feet." Ed It is laughable, and if we are going to give Lexus a brake because it was a pre-production model, then we should maybe give one to Audi since it was a no more production 06 model. The 07 has 15 more horses.
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with all due respect, you lost some credibility when you said the SC was fun around the autocross track. I have so many metaphors for that, my head hurts. Unfortunately, none that I can repeat here. Anyway, Buy what you love, not what somebody else loves. As far as the Lexus being the poor man's S class, I'll say this. If your not with the one you love, love the one your with. |
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Well said. Just commented that I was surprised at it's ability, considering the fact that the way people talk, the car should fall to pieces when pushed, which it didn't. No tire squeal, no oversteer, no hyper-roll. And I gave it as good a shove as possible while keeping it on course. Can't make an absolute judgement from an intense 30-45 sec. ride, doh. DrFill
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Replying to: drfill (Nov 29, 2006 8:05 pm)
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Replying to: drfill (Nov 29, 2006 7:33 pm) If you want a $90-100k Lexus LS, that's fine, it'll have more features than the S550, much less an A8/750. Doc, for days now you've been mentioning all these additional features found on the LS460, that are not found on the competition. And here you go again with these quotes, up above, from your post this evening. Other than the highly criticized and contraversial self-park thing, list all those important additional features out for us, cause I am not so sure that the list is nearly as significant as you seem to keep implying. But I'm open minded. So, bring on the list. TagMan |
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Replying to: esf (Nov 29, 2006 7:41 pm) Interesting perspective. Regarding the Jag's "underwhelming" 300hp. Consider this interesting comparison.... the new high-performing BMW 335 coupe weighs in at 3571 lbs. and is rated at 300 hp / 300 lbs. of torque. The XJ Jag, on the other hand is aircraft aluminum and weighs in at only 3726 lbs. That's only the difference of one 155 lb. passenger. It's rating is 300 hp / 310 lbs. of torque. VERY close in terms of HP / weight ratios, as the JAG comes in a little over 12 lbs per hp and the BMW comes in at just under 12 lbs. per hp. Just a little perspective. When I drove the new XK the other day (before I decided on the 911 CS) I was amazed at the spirited performance of what is essentially the same 300 hp engine placed in yet again another aircraft aluminum Jaguar. TagMan |
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