Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#21506 of 24723 KBB: BMW edged out in resale values
Nov 29, 2006 (2:55 pm)
Sister brands Honda and Acura topped the latest list of vehicle brands with the best resale value -- an important measure for upscale car buyers -- edging out longtime leader BMW.
Volkswagen, which moved up to No. 2, and BMW and its Mini brand, tied for third, also earned high marks in Kelley Blue Book's survey for the 2007 model year, as foreign brands took almost all the top honors.
Ford Motor Co. brand Land Rover came in fourth, and Porsche AG rounded out the list of the top five brands. Toyota Motor Corp. brands replaced Porsche in the fifth spot when vehicles produced in low numbers were excluded.
These 2006 models had the best resale value in their category:
• Sedan: Acura TSX
• Luxury: BMW 5 Series
• Coupe: Honda Civic
• Pickup: Toyota Tacoma
• Convertible: MINI Cooper
• Sport Utility: Acura MDX
• Wagon: Volkswagen Passat
• Van/Minivan: Honda Odyssey
• Hatchback: MINI Cooper
• Hybrid: Toyota Prius
#21507 of 24723 Re: Dewey [tagman]
Nov 29, 2006 (2:59 pm)
That's a bullseye. Definately for the 3 and 5 series.
Actually, I think the interior of the 3 is pretty good, and the X5 has one of the best interiors in the business. The 3 is better than the C-class, (especially the economy car pre-refresh C-class). The A4's interior is nice, but it looks very dated at this point. I think the 3 is at least on the same level as the IS350 and the new G, and better than the TL.
#21508 of 24723 Re: Dewey [lexusguy]
Nov 29, 2006 (3:28 pm)
I don't disagree with you.
And regardless of whether or not we see the merits of the interiors in the lower series, I understood hpowder's post to mean that the interiors are not the highest priority for BMW, and I also thought that he meant the first priority would be the vehicle's driving dynamics/performance.
Even though you and I might agree that the 3's interior is nice... my response to hpowders was that BMW's priority is indeed on driving dynamics, but mostly in the 3 and 5 series, and I believe that as we get into the upper series, a luxurious interior then starts to become A (not THE) higher priority.
Perhaps that is clearer.
BTW, nice pics of that beautiful XK!!!
#21509 of 24723 Topic
Nov 29, 2006 (3:54 pm)
I need to remind some of you that when we reopened and renamed this discussion, it was under the condition we stay on topic, meaning HIGH END vehicles (even if they are not luxury cars in the true sense of the word, they just need to be at or no more than a shade below the top of whatever line).
We're wandering into other territories... let's get back to where we need to be, okay?
#21510 of 24723 PAT-Staying on topic-your wish is my command
Nov 29, 2006 (4:51 pm)
I went to the Lexus dealership today as I learned from a close friend of mine that they had an "unpurchaseable" LS460L loaded to the tilt there.
Approaching $92k, the car had most of the marbles it takes to compete in this class.
Upon close examination, and to my surprise, Lexus has actually dropped the ball in interior assembly as I can attest to this because there was a leftover '06 LS430 on hand for comparison.
The panel gap tolerances have actually gotten wider(not a good thing in this class-not even the $18k compact car class nowadays). The seats don't have the same tight seams that were on the previous car, and they're just as slippery. The whole interior is just a bit underwhelming in that it doesn't offer that WOW feel of the German cars or the XJ, more like ES350 Premium upgrade.
That being said, the exterior is a bit staid but it does flow better than the LS430 could ever dream of. The new lines are, dare I say, more graceful and in an attempt to become more Euro- contempary, not a bad thing.
But it's in the overall refinement where Lexus spent the beans for this car. I don't think it bests the A8 or S550 for outright refinement(the three all nip at each other IMO in this regard), but the Lexus quality does ring through. The powertrain is a marvel of one, particularly from this maker, but it too doesn't come off particularly superior to the Euros, despite what many of you may believe an 8-speed tranny can do.
With all of that, I'd still be hard pressed to take one over an A8 or S550. The design isn't a quantum leap over the LS430 in that it doesn't make you totally forget about that car like an S550 does(for good or bad). And the still too conservative interior and blah-blah/so-so handling is still a major drawback for me personally.
But this is still a much deserving car to be in the place it's now, but the 3-pointed star followed only by an inch the 4-looped rings will be my favs for sometime to come...
#21511 of 24723 Re: Dewey [tagman]
Nov 29, 2006 (5:11 pm)
Let 'em get the high-end V-8 X5 instead of the 7 Series. BMW's best interior is in the former.
With a few options that I would want added to the base 2007 4.8 L V-8 X5, I came up with an MSRP of $74096, a true high-end vehicle.
And yes, Tagman. That is exactly what I was attempting to convey about BMW's.
#21513 of 24723 And...continuing to stay on topic
Nov 29, 2006 (5:38 pm)
I personally enjoyed your post about your visit to the Lexus dealer to see the LS460L. When I examined the vehicle at the show, I thought that the interior was too typical and "conservative" as you put it, but I thought the interior fit/finish/workmanship were actually very good. I am a bit surprised that you were disappointed in that, but then again, I did not have the previous model to compare it to as you did. My other beef was the large amounts of hard plastic around the instrumentation, and throughout the center stack/console.
I am curious about your perspective on that rather large $92K ticket. I am of the opinion that the price of the Lexus is now too high to be considered the great value it once was. In fact, I believe it is now somewhat overpriced and much more vulnerable to competition than it was in the past. What do you think about this?
#21514 of 24723 Re: And...continuing to stay on topic [tagman]
Nov 29, 2006 (6:24 pm)
Tag, I don't know if you remember or not, but back in the summer, Merc and I, during the much-heated debates of the LS' redesign, brought up Lexus pricing stragegy of late. This opened up a whole can of WTF? And of course, we all never fully agreed on anything.
Well the time has come, and as predicted, the new LS460(especially in L) is no longer that "value-conscience, sensible" buy that it was once was. In fact, it now poses as the least "valued" LS of all 17 years.
Speaking of 17 years, that's all this company has. MB, Audi, BMW and Jag can all charge a premium as they've put in work over countless decades to do so. So the whole "S550 is way to overpriced" arguement is thrown out of the window as the we now see what the LS460L charges just to play ball with the almighty S550.
IMO, Lexus, with their high dollar cars, has strayed away and abandoned their philosphy of "we offer what they offer, for considerably less".
To put it in more prospectives: The '00 MB top-dog, the S500, costed, on average, 78-80k. The new S550 is at 90-95k in most forms.
The LS400 of 2000 hit at 49k(if you could find one). The 2001 LS430 rang in at 55k for starters, on average, about 62-64k.
The new LS460 starts off at roughly 64k. To compete with the big dogs, you have to go L, and with a few options, that puppy swells from a low of 70k(you will not find one like this because even if you try to order it, Lexus only builds very few, if any for our markets- Oh, and you have to buy option packages on Lexus vehicles) to an ultimate of $96k. Where's the value? Those are some pretty sharp increases, no matter how you cut it folks.
Sorry, but the LS is no longer a value. Does that make it a bad buy? Heck no, it's still a Lexus, and to the folks that luv'em, buy up, as this is still a pretty sturdy ride.
But you can no longer beat up the other cars because they're marginally higher. With the exception of the Benz, the other cars in it's class are now in the same price point.
BTW: I wasn't upset about the LS' interior. It's just not what I expected it to be, not much of a vast improvement. The panel gaps are the worse tho. And that hard plastic is way out of line. In line for a $32k Chrysler 300C HEMI as it is a value enough, out of line for the supposed quality king of interior materials and workmanship
Alas, I will be waiting out in the front yard for you to wisk me away in the new Carrera. CONGRATS!!!!!!!
#21515 of 24723 Re: Pictures posted [lexusguy]
Nov 29, 2006 (8:21 pm)
Wow, lexusguy! Beautiful XK! TagMan, I feel the same way about your 997 CS.
In two years or so, it's going to be SO hard for me to choose between the XKR and a 911... wow... decisions, decisions. The XKR has a price advantage (95 more hp for about the same price as a Carrera Cabriolet with my options), but a Porsche will always be a Porsche. I'll have to drive both.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330