Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#21346 of 24726 Re: Merc [drfill]
Nov 26, 2006 (9:45 pm)
The leather was nite and day better than a 90's E420, which is no excuse for having leather less appealing than a Geo Prism Lsi!
Doc you prove you knowledge of Mercedes to be non-existent with comments like these. The leather in 90's era Mercedes was that way for durability. Tell me when you see a 90's LS or Acura on a used car lot how many of the driver's seats are cracked and split down the middle compared to a Benz of the same era. Secondly, again if you've got to go back 10 years to make a point about leather quality in a 2007 Benz you're reaching to make a point that can't and won't be made. Ridiculous.
C&D made mention as much of the LS' influence, when they tested the 2000 S430 against the LS, in one of the LS' wins over the S-Class, as the 1999 model developed a "tropical" interior, with colors and textures reminiscent of the LS. Too bad the interior didn't function like an LS.
Only part true, they noted the change but I don't remember Lexus being mentioned in that sentence. Oh doc I don't think you want to talk about Car and Driver right now, I'll get to that in due time.
I have no problem saying the last S-Class was clearly better-looking than the LS was. But that script has flipped. "My Humps" is not even really close to the LS on that front now.
Good, we disagree then. True the new S does have large wheel arches, but have you seen one with the AMG package? It blows the stylized packing crate of a LS460 into the weeds. The S-Class has prescence and a stance that no giant Toyota could ever match.
So I guess your point is because the LS was inspired to meet, or exceed, the S from the satrt, that Mercedes couldn't possibly learn a new trick from the LS? Keep repeating that until someone believes it. That class is still in session.
No, my point is that nothing Mercedes has done or learned from Lexus comes within 200 miles of all the blatant copying, mimicing that Lexus has done. Period. To say MB was influenced by Lexus in the interior softness seems kinda silly when Lexus up until 2007 used to transplant whole bodies from Mercedes.
#21347 of 24726 Re: Merc [esf]
Nov 26, 2006 (9:46 pm)
If you have the means, the S550 is the only way to go in this class. It's dazzlingly beautiful. To say the interior isn't more appealing than the LS's is like saying the Audi A8's interior isn't nicer than the 7 Series's. The S-Class has a beautifully executed interior, whereas the LS460's looks almost identical to any other sedan in Lexus's lineup. A flagship sedan is supposed to be special, different, exclusive. The S-Class, A8, 7er and even XJ all fit this rule. The LS seems to be the only one that didn't get the memo.
Bingo. The LS has the same design and layout of a Toyota right down the shape of the center stack.
#21348 of 24726 Re: Esf [drfill]
Nov 26, 2006 (9:47 pm)
Continually throwing the ES into the converstaion is irrelevant, since the C-Class has aped the S-Class for generations, and nobody brings that up. Does the C-Class cheapen the S' looks? That plane flies both ways.
True, I bet Lexus SC430 drivers hate this when a Toyota Camry Solara flies by. Talking about cheapening the brand. Oh wait a mintue, they're different brands. Yikes.
#21349 of 24726 Re: Tag [drfill]
Nov 26, 2006 (9:51 pm)
Merc has constantly, ad-nausium, put up pics of Mercedes evolution in exterior styling. But they are at best inconsistent on interior styling, as the 1998, 2000, and 2006 have little incommon with each other. I didn't know the wheel needed reinvention. Mercedes interiors aren't "restyled", they are thrown out and started from scratch!
Which is how design works when you trying to keep things fresh. For years Mercedes used the same interior layout right down to the pattern of the seats, but unlike Lexus Mercedes is more forward thinking when it comes to design both inside and out. Lexus couldn't build a CLS if they tried.
I see chinks in the armor.
Apparentley you're about the only one.
The S-Class is a step back, inside and out. Still a fine car and all, but nothing for Lexus to fear. Lexus has it right, and Mercedes is trying to find an interior identity, and maybe seperate it's design from Maybach, which is better (from the last S500/600)
IYO, allow me to use a Lexus theme here: "the market has spoken and it loves the new S-Class".
I gotta tell ya all this design commentary from you is really funny when Lexus has nothing that even evokes any passion or lust in any of their "designs". For years we have to hear ad-nausium how great the LS430 was yet it looked like the box that the IS or GS came in. How you can go from accepting a design like the LS430 to being such a critic of a brand like MB that has had "design" all over Lexus is beyond me. The new LS merely manages to look ok at best and yet it is supposed be some type of design revolution?
#21350 of 24726 Re: Tag [houdini1]
Nov 26, 2006 (9:57 pm)
Really? Just read the current Audi S6 follow-up here on Edmunds where it tried to be a BMW and/or MB but failed miserably!!
I think he meant in terms of design. It is no secret that Audi wants to be as prestigous as MB and BMW.
#21351 of 24726 Re: Tag [dewey]
Nov 26, 2006 (10:01 pm)
It is almost certain that the exterior and interior styling of the next generation BMW 7 Series will be emulated by both Lexus and MB in fuutre years.
Gotta disagree with the "MB" part in there. The current S-Class has a rear end like the original Maybach concept from 1997, not the current 7-Series. The 7 came out years after the Maybach concept of 1997 so if anything..........
#21352 of 24726 Re: Hi to all!! [blkhemi]
Nov 26, 2006 (10:06 pm)
Merc1, thanks for the E-Class family tree. Very good history, and yes, like yourself, I'm on the hunt for the best E-Class of all time(or up until this year's E63 perhaps), the 500E.
There is one in the classified in the back of Autoweek right now. A 1994 model with only 8K on the clock supposedly owned by Al Unser Jr. No price listed of course, it is likely in the ridiculous for me category, but you can't beat that mileage.
Nov 26, 2006 (10:12 pm)
Remember you said you could live with the LS placing second in a C&D comparo? Well I don't know how you're going to take this, but Autospies is reporting that in the Jan issue of C&D there is a comparo of the LS460, S550, 750i, A8, and XJ8 Super 8. The S550 placed first and the LS460 place dead last.
As I type this I'm trying to remember that really wasn't a fair test to the LS460 because they should have used a LS460L, not the SWB LS460, but still last place? I wouldn't have guessed that in a million years. That is the same place the S430 you loved to talk down about placed.
Now this by no means is an etched in stone impression. I still want to see the all the LWB variants compared.
#21354 of 24726 Doc - Edit
Nov 26, 2006 (10:24 pm)
Ok these are the LWB variants, the A8L, 750iL, LS460L, S550 (only comes one way, long) and XJ Super 8 so it looks like this was a fair fight afterall Doc. Some scans of the article from some of the autospies posters:
The official rankings:
1st - MB S550
2nd - Audi A8L
3rd - BMW 750iL
4th - Jaguar XJ8 Super V8
5th - Lexus LS460L
An upset of major proportions IMO. Second place I could see, but the LS460L placing last? The LS460L was 93K, only 10K less than the Benz, that may have cost it. Lexus seems to have forgotten their value price roots. Still reading....
#21355 of 24726 Pictures posted
Nov 26, 2006 (10:49 pm)
Ok guys, I got around to taking and uploading some pictures. Enjoy.