High End Luxury Cars

24645 messages, Last post on Aug 26, 2008 at 5:40 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Outline

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#21322 of 24645 Tag by drfill Nov 25, 2006 (7:21 pm)
... and not changing for changes sake. Change is an ongoing process in the automobile industry. Merc has constantly, ad-nausium, put up pics of Mercedes evolution in exterior styling. But they are at best inconsistent on interior styling, as the 1998, 2000, and 2006 have little incommon with each other. I didn't know the wheel needed reinvention. Meaningless point. And the interior relationship to BMW is well-known and unmistakable. How is it gonna be recent and contemporary, if it mocks a 5 year-old design? Now this is interesting. You have already admitted that the LS has got lots of BMW exterior styling... which is quite a few years old, yet suddenly you brag about the new and improved exterior styling, but on the other hand you say it is old BMW styling. You seem to use the BMW example only when it works for your argument, but discard it when it comes to the LS exterior styling, which is clearly borrowed from the BMW. Change IS part of the automotive industry. Continuous Improvement (or kaisen) is not. Do I need to point out Exhibit A? The meaningless point you overlook is how Mercedes goes to such pains to show an evolutionary design theme outside, but that philosophy gets thrown out of the window when you get inside? YOU use the BMW to prove your point, but YOU are being hippocritical. The LS has some elements of the 7 series in the rear end (Only far better done). The S has some elements of the 7-series interior, and they are no better off for it. The last S-Class interior was clearly better. So good, in fact, the Maybach borrows heavily from it. And I've heard no complaints about the Maybach interiors, have you? I haven't heard many kudos for the 7-series interior, but Mercedes seems to like it well enough. Just not having COMAND or iDrive keeps the LS ahead of the others. Maybe you want something flashy, or more eye-popping, but Lexus is only guilty of not screwing up a great thing. I wish I could say the same for the 7 or S-Class. The 1995-2000 7 was clearly better turned out than the current model, and the S has not learned from that history. Those who do not learn from history....... DrFill Replies to this message: tagman (Nov 25, 2006 7:35 pm) dewey (Nov 26, 2006 6:31 am) tagman (Nov 26, 2006 7:45 am) tagman (Nov 26, 2006 8:07 am)
#21323 of 24645 Re: Tag [drfill] by tagman Nov 25, 2006 (7:35 pm)
Replying to: drfill (Nov 25, 2006 7:21 pm) You have expressed quite a negative sentiment regarding the S-Class. Yet, when you drove it, you were more complimentary of the vehicle as I recall. Obviously you do not like the Mercedes S-Class, and you prefer the Lexus LS. That's fine, but it doesn't change my opinion of the LS. I still think it gets credit for a terrific fit and finish and top-notch quality. I just do not think that it's appearance, interior or exterior, are as exciting as other cars in these high price categories. I guess, with all its credits, I wish it were more exciting a vehicle. That would get me to consider one. But as it is, it's just too mainstream and plain. The way I see it, the LS needs more pizazz! Remember, Doc, there is no right or wrong here, just our opinions. And, I think we already know each others point of view. So let's let it rest. Help me out with the Porsche Tiptronic 911 vs. SL550 dilemma. TagMan Replies to this message: dewey (Nov 26, 2006 6:31 am) tagman (Nov 26, 2006 7:45 am) tagman (Nov 26, 2006 8:07 am)
#21324 of 24645 Tag by drfill Nov 25, 2006 (7:46 pm)
Just to be correct about it, I don't have a particular problem with the S-Class as it stands alone, except for the rear end. The car is a world-class luxury car, and at the end of the day, we are splitting hairs. If you can call the S-Class more exciting or it has more pizazz, go with that. But don't sell that to me, 'cus I ain't buyin' it. I prefer the last one. The S-Class drives great, as does the LS, which only hastens the point, why buy the S-Class over the LS? That's all I'm sayin' Regarding the Porsche vs SL, if you want slush, stick with Mercedes. I think it's blasphemy to desecrate a Porsche with a killjoy. Porsches are for fun, so a slushbox is not an option. I was kinda hopin' you could drive, Tag. Sorry to hear that. DrFill Replies to this message: tagman (Nov 25, 2006 8:07 pm)
#21325 of 24645 Re: Tag [drfill] by tagman Nov 25, 2006 (8:07 pm)
Replying to: drfill (Nov 25, 2006 7:46 pm) Well, as you know, Doc, every sports car I've ever owned has had a stick. That's probably why when I drove the Tiptronic for the first time in my life (today) I was disappointed. Terrible situation here. I have to go very easy on the neck, and yet, I want to have some fun behind the wheel. Oh well. TagMan
#21326 of 24645 Tag by drfill Nov 25, 2006 (8:29 pm)
Fair enough. Sorry I doubted you. The only automatic that maybe as good/better than it's counterpart is the one in the F430. Or a 2001 Mustang. DrFill Replies to this message: tagman (Nov 25, 2006 8:49 pm)
#21327 of 24645 Re: LS Interest [dewey] by laurasdada Nov 25, 2006 (8:37 pm)
Replying to: dewey (Nov 25, 2006 12:36 pm) Yes, Dad enjoys his cars. Usually a little off-center including a (I think the year was) 1956 Mercedes 300(?) grey four door convertible that was not meant for the US. The rear view mirror flipped up like a periscope due to the huge rear stack created by the convertible top. The car had a "Dictaphone" in it, the speedo was, of course, calibrated in km/h. It was HUGE! He also had a '71 Saab 99 with "freewheeling" four speed stick, the car I learned to drive in and ended up using in high school. By then, very faded red, but fun and different from the plethora of Monte Carlos, Camaros, Mustangs, Pintos and Mavericks of friends... Dad also bought a "restored" 1964.5 Mustang convertible from a friend. From a distance, it looked fab, not so much under close scrutiny. And, after a post-purchase mechanical inspection, he was told that it was a time bomb on wheels... And, about as un-HELC as possible, a yellow w/black racing stripes Renault Le Car. Two friends and I drove the LeCar from CT to Jackson Hole, WY for a semester break ski trip. Car was an economical champ and got us through some wicked snow storms. Still the most snow I've ever seen in my life and the best seven straight days of skiing... Dad always wanted a BMW, a Bavaria specifically. He had friends who just loved driving them. But hated owning them, days of less than stellar reliabiility I guess back then. Mom did so like her Mercedes, though. And now for a sarcastic(?) moment: Another differnece in the LS vs. S interior is that all those lovely electronics will probably actually work reliably for the LS! I think the S looks much better on the road than in pix. While I absolutely hate the "Bangle-butt" (most egregious on the 6 series), it is done a little more gracefully on the S, but I'd prefer a more traditional posterior. Saw a shiny, black 2007 S today while spending the day on Cape Cod. Looked good to me... Replies to this message: tagman (Nov 25, 2006 8:55 pm)
#21328 of 24645 Re: Tag [drfill] by tagman Nov 25, 2006 (8:49 pm)
Replying to: drfill (Nov 25, 2006 8:29 pm) Doc, the trickiest stick I ever drove was actually in a Ferrari. I cursed more than once at its inverted 5-speed with first gear in the lower left corner. Just because it was in a Ferrari doesn't mean it wasn't goofy. It was horrible. TagMan
#21329 of 24645 Re: LS Interest [laurasdada] by tagman Nov 25, 2006 (8:55 pm)
Replying to: laurasdada (Nov 25, 2006 8:37 pm) I think the S looks much better on the road than in pix. While I absolutely hate the "Bangle-butt" (most egregious on the 6 series), it is done a little more gracefully on the S, but I'd prefer a more traditional posterior. Saw a shiny, black 2007 S today while spending the day on Cape Cod. Looked good to me... As much as I like the S-Class, I would have preferred to see a little more of a streamlined graceful trunk. TagMan
#21330 of 24645 Tag by dhamilton Nov 25, 2006 (9:11 pm)
Doesn't the Maserati Gransport come in a drop top? Could that be an option? On the cheap end, what about the new Ford Mustang Shelby cobra. I know, I know, not near as refined as the other cars were discussing, just thought I'd throw out some odd balls. What a dilemma you are in. It's kind of like the quandary that Mrs Blkhemi is facing on her return from overseas. The S600, or the S8. Oh the humanity Replies to this message: lexusguy (Nov 26, 2006 5:32 am) lexusguy (Nov 26, 2006 6:34 am) designman (Nov 26, 2006 5:42 pm)
#21331 of 24645 Re: Test Drives [tagman] by lexusguy Nov 26, 2006 (5:15 am)
Replying to: tagman (Nov 25, 2006 7:19 pm) Very nice, but I'm not all that impressed with the Tiptronic. I got the same impression in my Carrera S Cab tiptronic test drive. The Porsche autobox is average at best, it really doesn't befit a performance company of their stature. Porsche needs Audi's "R-tronic", and they need it now. I'm sorry the Jag test drive wasn't up to your expectations. I would suggest giving it one more go, if its not too much trouble. When its working properly, the Jag's gearbox is amazing. Mercedes' 7-speed is probably the most refined automatic on the road, but that doesn't necessarily make it "fun". When I test drove the SL I tried the manual mode briefly and then just left it in auto. The Jag on the other hand is all the fun of a SMG, without the drawbacks. The XK is a large car, but it doesn't drive that way. Its several hundred pounds lighter than the SL, and I can tell behind the wheel. Also, that size means the XK has a usable trunk. The SL has room for maybe one bag, and only a soft one.